HOMEBREW Digest #3177 Wed 24 November 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  "Last Odd Day" was 4 days early ("Bruce Francis")
  Hoegaarden gone soft?! (Pat Babcock)
  Shannon & Angela's very slow mead ("Sean Richens")
  Holey pipes, Batman... (ThomasM923)
  Hypochloritebier (VQuante)
  Dave Burley, ?? to 1999, rest in peace (Bret Morrow)
  Rose hips (Mike Bardallis)
  Odd Days...Not Blue! (Greg Hammond)
  Summer Brewing / wheat ("Darren Robey")
  RE: Wheat Stuck mash (Jack Straw)
  dry hopping with pellets (Mike Uchima)
  RE: BT Back Issues ("Sherfey")
  Thanksgiving (Ballsacius)
  In this corner... ("Jack Schmidling")
  St. Paul brew stop ("Luke Van Santen")
  Clone info: Alaskan Amber ("Doug Moyer")
  Re: BT is dead---Perhaps not ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Philmill II (Dan Listermann)
  Benzene in Dry Ice ("Timmons, Frank")
  BT backlash (Marc Sedam)
  Re: FWH reference Questions (Jeff Renner)
  Corona Mill ("Eric R. Theiner")
  BT has taken the money and ran - NOT! (Ron West)
  RE: BT is dead; long live Zymurgy (Demonick)
  Expanded grain hoppers for Malt Mill  / JSP customer service ("Menegoni, Lee")
  Valley Mill (Eric Schoville)
  Valley Mill (John Wilkinson)
  Ebooks Byte Brewery (MVachow)
  wheat lauter/last odd day/stealth and sudden violence ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Dry-hopping ("Dan Kiplinger")
  BT back issues ("Dana H. Edgell")
  Multiple milling, Really open fermentations (Dave Burley)
  Benzene and public safety (Dave Burley)
  Odd Days? (feldman)
  gelatinization ("Bayer, Mark A")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:42:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Bruce Francis" <bfrancis at pobox.com> Subject: "Last Odd Day" was 4 days early On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:22:17 -0500, Dave Burley wrote: >I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99 >because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd). >This is the last one we will ever see. After this, >there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. The >next Even Day will be 2/2/2000, the first since >8/28/888 (just in case you're keeping track....). I had been looking forward to this celebration for such a long time that I was sad to see this note and realize I had missed it! However, I realized all was not lost and celebrated it 4 days later: 11/19/99 - --- Bruce Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:00:42 -0800 From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Hoegaarden gone soft?! As I sit sipping my first Hoegaarden White in years, I'm struck by it's diminished character. Is it me, or has the Hoegaarden recipe been tampered with to make it sweeter, less acidic?! This is depressing... - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock/ "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:26:28 -0600 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: Shannon & Angela's very slow mead Hmm....1.150 is an SG way beyond my comfort zone. I start that kind of mead at 1.100, and add the remaining 1/3 of the honey on the second day of intense fermentation. It's the usual and highly recommended procedure. I think you re-pitched the champagne yeast a bit early. Now that you're below1.100, I would re-pitch, but I would hedge my bets even further by starting it in 1 L of 1.030 honey solution containing some yeast nutrients and pitching it once it's rocking. I used Lalvin EC1118 for my strong meads, but I always start it in 1 gallon of apple juice plus yeast nutrient and pitch it as soon as (within 1 day) it settles out so it's good & hungry. Mead is a big challenge for yeast, even more if it's high in gravity. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:36:49 EST From: ThomasM923 at aol.com Subject: Holey pipes, Batman... In the HOMEBREW Digest #3175 G. Hipple wrote: "Muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is a very strong acid you can get at a hardware store or pool supply. Be sure to follow the precautions on the bottle. Wear gloves and safety goggles. Make sure you can properly handle the carboy and have an accessible place >>>to pour it out<<<..." I would like to add "AFTER the acid is neutralized with ammonia" to the above bit of advice. How much ammonia? Until the solution turns bluish and the baking soda that you have on hand stops foaming up when added. Thomas Murray Maplewood, NJ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:43:14 EST From: VQuante at aol.com Subject: Hypochloritebier In einer eMail vom 19.11.99 06:12:55 (MEZ) Mitteleuropische Zeit schreibt homebrew-request@hbd.org: > I would follow this "no rinse" advice only when attempting a Classic > German Hypochloritebier or perhaps a Dunkel Hypochloritebier Hey, Phil, if you have such kind of prejudices on German beers, you probably didn't yet drink Belorussian beer from any of the small scale landbreweries, usually meant to give the consumer an alternative to pure alcohol or anti-ice liquids. That's taste!!! Keep on t(e/a)sting! Volker Volker R. Quante Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:12:38 -0500 From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net> Subject: Dave Burley, ?? to 1999, rest in peace It is with a heavy heart that I announce that Dave Burley has apparently died sometime after 11/15/1999 and before 11/17/1999, or at least 11/19/1999. Oddly enough he predicted his own death saying that he would die before another day with all odd digits comes on the calendar. Dave Burley wrote: - -------------------------------------------- I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99 because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd). This is the last one we will ever see. After this, there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. The next Even Day will be 2/2/2000, the first since 8/28/888 (just in case you're keeping track....). - --------------------------------------------. I must admit that I always have felt that unlike some many posters on HBD, Dave always checked his facts and never jumped to conclusions. We will all miss him. Bret Morrow, with major tongue in cheek Hamden, CT THIS IS A JOKE! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:58:28 -0500 From: Mike Bardallis <dbgrowler at provide.net> Subject: Rose hips Ruth asks about rose hips. I don't know about beer, but they make for an excellent mead. Paul Gatza made 4 sweet dessert meads for the AHA banquet in Olathe including red raspberry, marionberry(similar to loganberry), and rose hip. All were lovely, but the rose hip was the unanimous favorite. If I recall correctly, Paul used 2 pounds of rose hips to five gallons. Absolutely murder with cheesecake... Mike Bardallis dbgrowler at provide.net MIY2K Events Team Secretary/GROWLER Editor Downriver Brewers Guild Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:14:51 -0800 From: Greg Hammond <reeftank at pacbell.net> Subject: Odd Days...Not Blue! Okay, the last completely odd-numbered day was actually 11/19/99, not 11/15, and will be for some time...more than a thousand years. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:29:47 +1000 From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> Subject: Summer Brewing / wheat Thanks for all the kind people who replied to me call for ideas regarding high temp brewing. I hope to summarise the post more completely when managing the quality of this fine nations wheat crop subsides a little. We're mid harvest and flat out here. Anyhow the consensus seems to be beers of Belgian origin seem to be the ones to go for higher temp brewing, or a weizen, but mid to high 20's could produce more banana that this monkey could handle! Other options were the well designed systems of cooling such as boxes with ice, airconditioning, wet towels and fans and the fridge. It will be next summer before the fridge works out for me but I look forward to that and the complete control it deserves. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------ Next question would be are there any styles of beer that utilise high proportions of unmalted wheat. I take it we'd be looking at low protein soft white wheats rather than bread wheat. Any comments? Rgds and thanks again. Darren Robey Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:54:05 -0800 From: Jack Straw <jstraw79 at pacbell.net> Subject: RE: Wheat Stuck mash >>>Actually, Belgian Wit is my "House Beer". I make several a year, with no protein rests. I usually mash in at 154F, with 40-50% raw wheat, and I use a RIMS system. I have never had a slow or stuck sparge with one of my Wits.<<< I have had the same results, and I attribute it to using a high enzymatic two row grain in with the raw wheat...The high enzymes will take care of that nasty wheat goo that can be such a headache. Please, correct me if I am wrong here fellas, for this was only an assumption, affirmed by one of the boys down at Sierra Nevada. Cheers, Peter - -- "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -Ben Franklin Check out my show list at http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/gala/6928/CDRS.html Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:59:48 -0600 From: Mike Uchima <uchima at pobox.com> Subject: dry hopping with pellets In HBD #3176, Dan Kiplinger says: > Mike Uchima says: "Dry-hopping with pellets, OTOH, can be kind of a PITA, > since whirlpooling is not an option!" > > This simply is not true. I use almost exclusively pellitized hops and > whirlpool with great success. When the level of the kettle is low enough to > see the pile in the center of the kettle, I see no evidence that of any of > the trub or hops have broken off from the pile. [snip] Re-read what I wrote... I said *dry-hopping*, i.e. adding hops to the secondary fermenter. Whirlpooling a carboy full of fermented beer would be a neat trick. :-) Not to mention, I'd have to wait several days for the beer to fall clear again. I agree that using pellet hops in the kettle should not be a problem, I do it all the time. - -- == Mike Uchima == uchima at pobox.com == Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:49:18 -0500 From: "Sherfey" <sherf at warwick.net> Subject: RE: BT Back Issues I got mine last Wednesday. Two buyers guides and four back issues. Perhaps a little more patience is in order? David Sherfey Warwick, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:48:56 EST From: Ballsacius at aol.com Subject: Thanksgiving It is the time of year to sit back(with a homebrew ;^) ), reflect and give thanks. I would like to give thanks to the collective of this digest. Everytime, I had a newbie question (open this can with what?), to my trial with partial mash, to my decision to go all-grain...YOU, The COLLECTIVE, has always rised to the occasion and provided me with the help and wisdom that comes from experience. I have seen my beers increase in quality and my appreciation for beer and my fellow man climb higher then I could have imagined just years ago. To everybody on this digest, I raise my glass and salute.....THANK YOU! Bob Fesmire Madman Brewery Pottstown, PA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:01:00 -0600 From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net> Subject: In this corner... From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org> >OK. You need a $0.19 bushing to adapt the Maltmill shaft to a standard pulley. Big deal. I see no basis for a gripe here either! Glad I read the whole digest before responding. Thanks for the kind words. Just one nit picking point.... If we are told when ordering, that the mill is to be motorized, we include a pair of said bushings at no extra cost and automatically do so if the Gear Drive Option is purchsed. We also pay very high commissions to people who say nice things about our products. I just need your mailing address Pat. js PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:20:21 -0600 From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us> Subject: St. Paul brew stop Collective - Russ Hobaugh says he's gonna be in St. Paul soon and wants to know where to stop in for a brew. To which I say, Russ, get on over to Sherlock's Home in Minnetonka. Just plain good. It is just north of the Crosstown (Highway 62) on the east side of Shady Oak road. Maybe a bit of a ways from St. Paul, but very much worth it, IMO. Luke Van Santen St. Louis Park, MN Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:08:27 -0500 From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> Subject: Clone info: Alaskan Amber Dearest collective, In hopes of recruiting a new soul to the elite ranks of homebrewing, I am looking for a recipe for Alaskan Amber. Any suggestions? TIA Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:15:20 -0500 From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com> Subject: Re: BT is dead---Perhaps not In HBD #3176 rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn) wrote: - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I hate to write this article because I am *NOT* a fan of Zymurgy nor of the AHA in recent years...but honesty demands it. The prompt is: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com> wrote: Subject: BT back issue order > Has anybody received anything from BT after the letter offering to settle > accounts due with back issues? I dutifully sent in my back issue request and > have been waiting ever since. Glad I've not been holding my breath. This is an echo of various notes on rec.crafts.brewing, where nobody has heard a word from BT about back issues or any other sort of compensation. Apparently they botched the finances, folded, took the money (whatever was left of it after they screwed up!), and ran. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, I can't speak for everyone but in all fairness, I must report that BT treated me well. I had an article in for publication but it didn't make it before the collapse. Last week I received a package from BT that included all the photos I had submitted for the article, a copy of the article and, a Zip disk containing the article. It was dated November 10. I would take a wait and see on this. It seems people at BT are still working the problem. Wonder how they are getting paid. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:15:34 -0500 From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> Subject: Philmill II All this talk of mills on the HBD has moved me to severly risk being accused of advertizing and point out that last week we started shipping a new player on the mill market called the Philmill II. Check it out at listermann.com ( notice the double "n"s) It is nice and priced to compete. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:25:52 -0700 From: "Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons at AlliedSignal.com> Subject: Benzene in Dry Ice I usually stay on the sidelines for most of these discussions, but the debate about dry ice containing Benzene got my dander up. Almost all of the CO2 produced in this country is a byproduct of methane reforming. The methane (CH4) is cracked using a catalyst into CO and H2, the CO is oxidized to CO2, and the CO2 is removed using an amine solution. Most of the H2 is used to make ammonia, or is used in the production of gasoline and other petrochemicals. The C02 is sold to one of several companies. BOC gasses, Air Liquide, and Praxair control about 90% of the market. They clean and purify the C02 gas, then either liquefy it for shipping or make it into dry ice. The cleaning step involves carbon filtration (to remove organics, like benzene), compression and separation based on relatively different boiling points of the constituent gasses. The dry ice step is just a simple refrigeration step, just like making water (wet?) ice. Almost all of the CO2 produced this way is sold to brewers, soft drink bottlers, bars and restaurants, and welding supply houses (where you get your CO2 bottle filled). These end users have very strict standards for impurities, in the ppb range. The ammonia plant I work makes CO2 that goes into Coke, Pepsi, Bud, Miller, Pete's Wicked, and almost every micro or brewpub beer made in the Mid-Atlantic. The dry ice that our customers make is used to amuse schoolchildren and ship frozen food all over the world. If there is benzene in dry ice, it is also in almost every fizzy thing you buy or make, if you force carbonate. There are reasons not to use dry ice in homebrew (foamovers and bottle bombs, mainly), but benzene contamination isn't one of them. Frank Timmons James River Homebrewers Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:41:15 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: BT backlash I, as much as anyone, miss BT. Maybe more than most. The quality of the people and product were, and are, beyond reproach. Your accusations of unseemly business practices are a bit premature. When a company is dissolved and has outstanding credits to repay, there is an order which people are paid back. As might be expected, the banks get first crack at any assets. It is likely that BT also had/has outstanding debits to collect, and is trying to get the money it is owed as well. There are a whole series of people (my finance textbook is at home) who would get repaid before subscribers. Generally speaking, the people who are owed MORE money get repaid first. So, BT probably has 2000+ people who are each owed ~$30 (subscription price), and a few people who are owed much more than that. Legally speaking, subscribers are on the bottom of the totem pole. In a normal liquidation of assets you can sell off equipment in a "fire sale" and get some cash to repay outstanding debts. For a magazine who outsourced all of the printing and publication, they probably have very little in the way of PPE (property, plant, & equipment) to sell. A few computers, a nice poster, the microwave, but not much else. I know that Deb, Stephen, Gail, and the others at BT will take care of the subscribers to the best of their ability. An example: I had written a review for "The Homebrewer's Garden" months ago which was scheduled for publication in the now ill-fated June/July issue. Just this week I received a floppy disk and a letter from Deb Jolda (Editor) stating that they were returning the copyright to the article and a copy suitable for publication to me. I found this to be an act of genuine class, showing that they are trying to make good on all the promises of an organization that ceases to be. It would have been easier to simply reformat the hard drives and move on than to send me that information. BT gave a voice and forum to those who find both the art and science of brewing to be what its all about. I am forever grateful to them for allowing an unknown writer (me) to submit a research article which they found suitable for publication. As with many articles that appeared in BT, mine was recognized with a Quill and Tankard Award (http://www.beerwriters.org/writer/awards99.html). I say this less as self-promotion (although it is my proudest achievement in years of brewing) than to remind people of the great service that BT provided all brewers interested in taking their skills to the next level. Basically, I'd suggest you have a little patience before slandering a good organization that was squeezed out by shrinking market forces. Wrapping up an organization is not an easy or pretty site. Give them time and I have no doubt they will make good on as many obligations as they have the resources to do so. Financially speaking, it's a little early to get feisty. I have stepped down off my soapbox. -Marc Sedam Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:35:55 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: FWH reference Questions Bob.Sutton at fluor.com wrote: >Jeff Renner provided a superb summary of the FWH evaluations at two >breweries... I want to make it clear that this superb summary was written by erstwhile HBDer Dave Draper, not by me. Dave seems to be too busy being a rocket scientist (geologist for NASA, actually) to have time to contribute to HBD these days. I hope he has time to brew for himself, at least. Can't help on your question, though. I'd suggest going to the archives where George Fix provided more detail. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:15:12 -0800 From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com> Subject: Corona Mill Contractor Bob writes: >There are many grain mills available on eBay. Corona hand mills are selling >from $25 to $40. If they are any good. Aye, there's the rub. I started with a Corona and it was adequate. The problem is that the Corona is designed to mill grain into flour, and so it shreds rather than crushes. The surmountable problems were: -continuously adjusting the gap (because it would work loose-- it wasn't made to be cranked with a gap that big) -refilling the hopper frequently (the big hopper only held about 1.5 #'s) -cranking till my arm fell off (thus the one handed typing job) -watching the grain carefully to make sure that the crush wasn't too fine, but it wasn't completely whole, either (see first point) -discharge in a wide band, which I rectified by putting a gallon ziplock around the crush-plate. It's fine for starting off, and the price can't be beat. If you're planning on seeing how this grain stuff works, try it out. But if you're committed to going all grain, I'd pick up a mill suitable to the job. Rick Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:29:01 -0800 From: Ron West <ronwes at halcyon.com> Subject: BT has taken the money and ran - NOT! In response to a post regarding BT mag's "cheating and double-dealing" where the statement was made that nobody > has heard a word from BT about back issues or any other sort of > compensation. Apparently they botched the finances, folded, took the > money (whatever was left of it after they screwed up!), and ran. Not true. I can't speak for anyone else, most especially for anyone who may have held out for a monetary refund. But speaking for myself, I did receive all the compensatory back issues I was due, along with several additional issues that I added to my collection. This was several weeks ago now. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:03:36 -0800 From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: RE: BT is dead; long live Zymurgy From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn) > ... nobody has heard a word from BT about back issues or any other > sort of compensation. Apparently they botched the finances, > folded, took the money (whatever was left of it after they screwed > up!), and ran. > ... > Well, nobody's got anything so far, and it means that somebody is > cheating and double-dealing. I was holding out for money > back--meaning that's what I'd asked for, but not that I ever > expected it to happen from a company that couldn't manage its > basic finances. > ... > Shame, BT. Shame! You've not only killed yourself, but by your > failure to deliver even on your shut-down promises, you've killed > any future magazine. Whoa, Dick. These are pretty strong words and nasty aspersions to be casting about rather glibly. You have NO IDEA of the financial details of the demise of BT. My guess is that the subscribers are last in line to receive any compensation under the conditions of the demise (bankruptcy?). If BT did go bankrupt the subscribers are last in line BY LAW. I expect that banks, paper suppliers, and printers, are all ahead of us subscribers in that line. You're whining about your paltry $20-50. The banks and suppliers of BT are worried about tens of thousands of dollars or more. The principles of BT are also probably dealing with personal losses of similar amounts. So, lighten up, man, these people are mourning the death of a loved one, trying to pick up the pieces, and you're at the funeral bitching that the deceased owed you a few bucks! These things take time, often it is years before full resolution. Domenick Venezia Venezia & Company, LLC Maker of PrimeTab (206) 782-1152 phone (206) 782-6766 fax orders demonick at zgi dot com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:37:12 -0500 From: "Menegoni, Lee" <Lee.Menegoni at compaq.com> Subject: Expanded grain hoppers for Malt Mill / JSP customer service I have duct taped the cardboard box that a 12 pack of Catamount Christmas Ale came in to the original wood hopper. All most an exact fit. This setup holds all the grain for a 5 gallon batch. JSP 's customer service is superb. A brewing buddy of mine had a mill with the original design rollers, groves that ran the length of the roller. These rollers got damaged by motorizing and crushing floor malted grains that had small rocks. The mill still crushed fine but the rollers were scored from the rocks. He contacted JSP and for little more than the cost of shipping JSP promptly replaced the rollers with the newer knurled model. With all the whining we see on this digest over mail order purchases and specific vendors I have never seen anyone complain about JSP products or services. Attilio "Lee" Menegoni Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:06:42 -0600 From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com> Subject: Valley Mill John Wilkinson (Beer Drinker Extraordinairre) writes in HBD 3175 about the Valley Mill -snip- >I not infrequently during the grind of my usual 20 pounds (US) of grain >have the mill stall until I poke at it a bit or sometimes have to empty >the hopper, restart, and refill. I attribute this to the passive >roller not being driven, for some reason, by the grain. -snip- I am a happy owner of the Valley Mill and have put _a_lot_ of grain through it. I often double crush my malt, as someone else has suggested, to acheive better extraction. When putting the once crushed grain through, I also have to poke at it a bit to get it going. As a data point, I do adjust the gap in the mill based on type of grain. I find a real difference between domestic six row, Hugh Baird Pale Ale Malt (winter barley), American two row, German (or Czech) two row, and wheat malt (which I typically grind the finest). I have also motorized my mill with a motor from Burden's Surplus Center, which makes it very nice. BTW, I think that I still have the board that Pat was grumbling about that I bought with the mill. If anyone wants it, I'll send it for the cost of shipping. Eric Schoville Flower Mound, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:27:15 -0600 (CST) From: John Wilkinson <John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com> Subject: Valley Mill Grant Knechtel writes: >John Wilkinson writes in HBD 3175 about the Valley Mill > -snip- >>I not infrequently during the grind of my usual 20 pounds (US) of grain >>have the mill stall until I poke at it a bit or sometimes have to empty >>the hopper, restart, and refill. I attribute this to the passive >>roller not being driven, for some reason, by the grain. > -snip- >Another data point. I am part owner of a Valley Mill, and have never had >the mill "stall" in numerous batches with up to 25 lbs of grist. Perhaps >John has motorized his mill, and the power source is inadequate? I have motorized my Valley Mill but I don't think the 1/3 horse motor is inadequate. I drive it with a V-belt and it will slip if a rock gets stuck in the rollers but that is not my problem. My problem is the slave roller stalling while the driven roller still turns. The slave roller is driven by the grain passing between it and the driven roller. I had more problems when I tried double milling but as I saw no discernible improvement in double milling I abandoned that. I always brush off dust, etc., from the rollers before I start milling but sometimes have the mentioned problem. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:22:34 -0600 From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us Subject: Ebooks Byte Brewery This just in from my Portland, OR sister: Amazon.com has expressed interest in moving its central offices from Seattle to Portland, OR and more specifically to the much-bewept Blitz Weinhard brewery in the Pearl District a few doors down from Powell's Books. The Blitz Weinhard brewery was closed this year when Miller bought up most of Stroh's and that brewer's associated labels and contracts. The mayor of Portland, of course, could barely get up a quote for the press what with all the saliva. Industry officials expressed some reservations based largely on the fact that Amazon is notoriously over-extended even among E companies and the fact that strong interest from many quarters in the building will likely produce a top-dollar final price tag. Need I mention, also, that perhaps the transmogrification of a once proud regional brewery into a ecompany might be an allegory for our times. Click here for a virtual beer. Mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:43:18 -0800 From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com> Subject: wheat lauter/last odd day/stealth and sudden violence collective homebrew conscience_ robin g wrote: >A question was asked about lautering high proportion wheat beers. <snip> >The gentleman said that he decocts; this could lead to problems couldn't it, >due to gelatinization of the mash during decoction? Perhaps lautering is >easier when we infuse or step, rather than decoct. my personal experience has been exactly the opposite. when i don't decoct, wheat malt becomes a bigger problem when lautering. the one piece of advice i would pass on to any of you embarking on the ">50% wheat" grain bill path is this: when you start your runoff out of the lauter tun, run it off slowly. with my setup (phalse bottom), if i start the flow at too fast a rate, the bed compacts and the flow slows irrecoverably. if i start the runoff slowly, i can get up to an acceptable flow rate gradually with no problems. dave burley recently wrote: >I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99 >because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd). >This is the last one we will ever see. After this, >there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. 11/17/99 and 11/19/99 also qualify. i am surprised nobody came out of the woodwork to launch an attack on dave for this. what's happened to the digest? can't we get a decent flame war going any more? clinitest!! botulism!! schmidling for president!! also, there was this recently: >From: peter gough <pgough at ameritech.net> >Subject: wyeast >I AM JUST A BEGINNER AT YEAST CULTURES I HAVE ALWAYS USED >DRY YEAST CAN >ANYONE HELP ME AND GIVE ME ANY INFORMATION ON HOW TO >SUCCESSFULLY DO poor guy. "liddil" did he know jim was lurking right behind him, waiting to whack him at the first sign of the "w" word. it's late november and i haven't struck the first pot of water for the brewing season. 3 kids under 3 will do that to you, i guess. i wonder how al k's output has been this year. haven't seen much from him lately. brew hard, (hypocrite! hypocrite!) mark bayer Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:24:48 -0500 From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com> Subject: Dry-hopping Robin Griller just pointed out to me that I misunderstood what Mike Uchima wrote. I did read it wrong. He said DRY-hopping was a pain because you can't whirlpool. When I read it (and even copied it to my message!) I didn't even notice the word "dry". I'm sorry for the mix-up and I think I'm going to stop reading the post@ 2 in the morning before I hit the sack. ;-) Dan Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:07:51 -0700 From: "Dana H. Edgell" <EdgeAle at cs.com> Subject: BT back issues I sent Rob Jones private emil on this but after reading Dick Dunn condemnation of BT for failure to deliver back issues I have to chirp in on their defense. I used my subscription refund to order the latest BT Market Guide (I have all the back issues). It arrived about a week or two ago. I wouldn't give up on your back issues yet. Dana - -------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Edgell mailto:EdgeAle at cs.com Edge Ale Brewery http://ourworld.cs.com/EdgeAle San Diego Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:31:25 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Multiple milling, Really open fermentations Brewsters: Keith MacNeal asks if I can define "substantially better" as it relates to my method of double milling of malt. The details are in the archives, but milling coarse first ( just so the grain is being cracked) removes the husk whole, cracks the grain to a uniform size ( about 6 pieces), but larger than desired for good extraction. On the second pass ( 0.06 in nip), the husks are not milled smaller and the grist is uniformly sized to the desired size with low flour content. My experience with a single pass is that if it is too large ( as in Homebrew store), extraction can drop by several points depending on the relative size of the grists ( like from the 90s % to 75%) and if too small, the husks get ground also and milling is intermidable. Worse, the small husk size ( from getting "chewed" off the grain) in the too small nip and high flour content can lead to a slow or stuck sparge. Double milling actually takes less time than a protracted small size single milling, since the grain is pulled into the nip easily and gives substantially better sparging due to the whole husks. I have to restrict the flow out of my lauter tun with a valve, so that I don't sparge too fast. If I didn't, I would be finished sparging in 15 minutes or less, with consequent loss of extraction. Take an hour to sparge, since the sugars need to diffuse into the sparging solution. This milling method allows me to use a rapid sparge method when making rye beers. Since the viscosity of these worts is extremely temperature and concentration dependent. This is the reason most brewers have trouble with rye worts spargings. To overcome this, I pull off all the hot wort as rapidly as possible, rinse the bed with hot sparge water, combine these sparges, heat them back to 170F and put this hot, diluted solution back through the grain bed to clarify it. Works great! I get good recovery and the sparge goes smoothly and I am in control of the rate. Sparge the bed with the remaining half of the sparge water. This is what I mean by "substantially better." A complete improvement across the board in the extraction process. - --------------------------------------------- Robin cites the brewing process of centuries ago as demonstrating the nonsense of yeast becoming contaminated from exposure to the air in a truly open fermentation. I do not deny that yeast has been fermented in the open for centuries. I also have no proof that the yeast were not contaminated - do you? I suspect they were to some extent, as many beers were enjoyed mixed with acidic "old" or "stale" beers. This sort of taste might have been desirable over the centuries as it is less cloying in the , low alpha acid hopped, heavy beers of the time AND it may have been a natural consequence of British fermenting styles - sort of like Momma's cooking. There is also the oft told danger of "yeast-bitten" beer from letting the head fall back in. Both AlK and I agree this is false. How could this rumor have been started? Perhaps by tasting the fermentation head comprised of protein/tannin complexes insoluble in beer or perhaps by contaminated yeast? In British open brewing, the head was routinely skimmed on a daily or more basis to prevent this head from falling back in. This would have prevented or reduced contamination. Maybe it is a case of right action for the wrong reason. There is a second issue and that is the surface to volume ratio of the swimming pool size fermenters and your measley 5 or ten gallon brew. Calculate the relative surface to volume ratio and you appreciate the difference in exposure ratio. If I take a ~100,000 gallon fermenter as being 30X30X10 ft deep, I get an exposure of 900 sq ft/100.000 gal compared to your fermenter with about ~3 sq ft and 5 gallons That is a ratio of 0.009 vs 0.6 sq ft per gallon or about 66 times less exposure in the case of the old timey British brewery. A taller fermenter would be an even greater difference. Many fermenters were larger and deeper than this. Modern use of the open fermenter is done in a closed room under positive pressure with automatic skimming. Ask yourself, if it was so good why did they change? The real danger of using a truly open fermentation is if you are recycling your yeast, then repeated contamination over time can cause a problem. Why not close it up with a plastic sheet? It works great and no cats or kids can fall in! I also cover mine with a lid to prevent light from skunking it. Keep on Brewin' Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:32:47 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Benzene and public safety Brewsters: Page down if you don't want to read about properly describing chemical dangers, politics, public safety and how it affects your life. Sorry for the rant, but a nerve got hit and the HBD is light at the moment. Glen Pannicke says about Benzene: "Benzene is a carcinogen" Unless I missed something, it has been only proven so in specially selected, tumor susceptible mice. But, he is right it is *legally* a carcinogen. And he says benzene is highly toxic and is absorbed through the skin, through ingestion and breathing the vapors. In my own experience, benzene is not toxic in the sense I believe this word should be used. - that is poisonous and life threatening. As a chemist, I and millions of other chemists used to wash in this stuff and breathe it routinely. Chemists as a group have lower cancer rates than the general population, as do chemical workers. In large quantities, over a long time ( hardly a toxin), I do believe that it can have an effect on your liver, as can many aromatics. If so, this was proven by studies of humans and does have meaning. Maybe epidemiological studies on human populations are now available demonstrating the clear carcinogenicity of benzene. I have never seen them. Let's clarify the information source and specify the effect so we can be better informed and not be continually ravaged by the words "toxic chemical" which has taken on emotional meanings in the media, because of the general non-understanding of the reporters and the need to make headlines. And their failure to understand what a toxin is. I know of no human example in which cancer was caused by benzene. This doesn't mean we should be sloppy, but let's stop crying wolf and supporting a flawed system of evaluation of danger ( tumor susceptible mice), so we know where to spend our resources and of what to be really careful. Let's not mix politics and public safety as now happens - in spades. Every statement about chemical safety should be prefaced by "In tumor susceptible mice and specially selected strains of hairless, poor immune system mice... No studies of humans were carried out". Often, in studies I have seen ( and that is quite a few) when we were preparing MSDS sheets for every chemical in the 1970s , it was routine that so many of the control mice died it was difficult to determine the effect. Sometimes, more control mice died or had more tumors than the test mice, but no one proposed this blatantly excess chemical treatment as a cure for cancer! Use of sloppy statistics and discarding of "outliers" or should I say "out-right liars" often justified the study for the Ph.D. candidate and his Prof's grant from the NIH or whoever and resulted in the classificaton of the substance as a problem. Call me sceptical. It is possible that benzene could be in dry ice, depending on the source of the dry ice, it will likely be infinitesimal, but it is conceivable . Remember the fairly recent withdrawal of Perrier water because PPB (?) of benzene somehow got in the water from a pumping station or something. My opinion of this? A waste of time, money and reputation for fear of litigation based on the false premise that if giant quantities of an injected chemical disrupts the immune systems of a susceptible rodent,and prevent it from fighting tumors, then ANY quantity will be labeled a carcinogen. This is on the lawbooks. Just like it is the law that anything which has ever been radioactive is considered to be *legally* radioactive and has to be handled accordingly, despite the fact that the radioactive substances have been removed. What is the result of this absurd law? Potentially, millions of gallons of low-grade radioactive water leaking into our water supply, since there is no good way to dispose of the purified water and it is thus cheaper to store it. Buried steel tanks leak after 30 or 40 years as has been demonstrated in Washington state. This law may be one more tool in the lobbying efforts of Big Coal, Oil and Gas to make safe, cheap, pollution-free Nuclear energy too expensive for the US. Call me paranoid. I want people to be careful, but be sceptical, so we are not fooled and make bad long-term decisions for this nation based on bad information. Public safety is the wrong place to cry "wolf". In making homebrew, being careful is very important, since this is a hobby which can involve immediately dangerous things like pressure tanks, boiling water, slippery 5 gallon glass carboys weighing 50 lbs and possibly real toxins like botulin toxins. As a hobby, we often try to do things that present a real danger, as our enthusiam takes over our better judgement. I do not promote that kind of behavior. Always think through what you are doing if you are using a piece of equipment that is not intended for the purpose and develop an appropriate exit strategy. It doesn't take long to get hurt permanently. - ---------------------------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:36:10 -0500 From: feldman at lexmark.com Subject: Odd Days? Dave writes: >I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99 >because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd). >This is the last one we will ever see. After this, >there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. The >next Even Day will be 2/2/2000, the first since >8/28/888 (just in case you're keeping track....). >- -------------------------------------------- >Keep on Brewin' And I reply: I also had a wonderful day (although quite odd) on 11/17/99 and aslo on 11/19/99. I also remember 01:23:45 6/7/89 which doesn't happen very often unless you count 12:34:56 7/8/90 etc. etc. Bobby (looking forward to 12:34:56.7 8/9/10) B.O.C.K. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:17:53 -0800 From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com> Subject: gelatinization collective homebrew conscience_ i just re-read the following: (robin g wrote) >The gentleman said that he >decocts; this could lead to problems couldn't it, due to gelatinization >of the mash during decoction? Perhaps lautering is easier when we infuse >or step, rather than decoct. the insinuation here (at least the way it reads to me) is that decoction-mashed beers undergo gelatinization and infusion-mashed beers do not. barley malt gelatinizes at (roughly) 147 to 153 deg f., thus gelatinization should occur in most of our mashing adventures, regardless of mashing method (decoc vs. infus). for loads more info., search the hbd archives on "scandrett", circa 1997 or so. just a nit. brew hard, mark bayer Return to table of contents
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