---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  "Last Odd Day" was 4 days early ("Bruce Francis")
  Hoegaarden gone soft?! (Pat Babcock)
  Shannon & Angela's very slow mead ("Sean Richens")
  Holey pipes, Batman... (ThomasM923)
  Hypochloritebier (VQuante)
  Dave Burley, ?? to 1999, rest in peace (Bret Morrow)
  Rose hips (Mike Bardallis)
  Odd Days...Not Blue! (Greg Hammond)
  Summer Brewing / wheat ("Darren Robey")
  RE: Wheat Stuck mash (Jack Straw)
  dry hopping with pellets (Mike Uchima)
  RE: BT Back Issues ("Sherfey")
  Thanksgiving (Ballsacius)
  In this corner... ("Jack Schmidling")
  St. Paul brew stop ("Luke Van Santen")
  Clone info: Alaskan Amber ("Doug Moyer")
  Re: BT is dead---Perhaps not ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Philmill II (Dan Listermann)
  Benzene in Dry Ice ("Timmons, Frank")
  BT backlash (Marc Sedam)
  Re: FWH reference Questions (Jeff Renner)
  Corona Mill ("Eric R. Theiner")
  BT has taken the money and ran - NOT! (Ron West)
  RE: BT is dead; long live Zymurgy (Demonick)
  Expanded grain hoppers for Malt Mill  / JSP customer service ("Menegoni, Lee")
  Valley Mill (Eric Schoville)
  Valley Mill (John Wilkinson)
  Ebooks Byte Brewery (MVachow)
  wheat lauter/last odd day/stealth and sudden violence ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Dry-hopping ("Dan Kiplinger")
  BT back issues ("Dana H. Edgell")
  Multiple milling, Really open fermentations (Dave Burley)
  Benzene and public safety (Dave Burley)
  Odd Days? (feldman)
  gelatinization ("Bayer, Mark A")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:42:55 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bruce Francis" <bfrancis at pobox.com>
Subject: "Last Odd Day" was 4 days early

On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:22:17 -0500, Dave Burley wrote:

>I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99
>because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd).
>This is the last one we will ever see. After this,
>there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. The
>next Even Day will be 2/2/2000, the first since
>8/28/888 (just in case you're keeping track....).

I had been looking forward to this celebration for such a long
time that I was sad to see this note and realize I had missed it!

However, I realized all was not lost and celebrated it 4 days later:
        11/19/99

- ---
  Bruce


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:00:42 -0800
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Hoegaarden gone soft?!

As I sit sipping my first Hoegaarden White in years, I'm struck by it's 
diminished character. Is it me, or has the Hoegaarden recipe been tampered 
with to make it sweeter, less acidic?!  This is depressing...
 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:26:28 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Shannon & Angela's very slow mead

Hmm....1.150 is an SG way beyond my comfort zone.  I start that kind of
mead at 1.100, and add the remaining 1/3 of the honey on the second day of
intense fermentation.  It's the usual and highly recommended procedure.

I think you re-pitched the champagne yeast a bit early.  Now that you're
below1.100, I would re-pitch, but I would hedge my bets even further by
starting it in 1 L of 1.030 honey solution containing some yeast nutrients
and pitching it once it's rocking.

I used Lalvin EC1118 for my strong meads, but I always start it in 1 gallon
of apple juice plus yeast nutrient and pitch it as soon as (within 1 day)
it settles out so it's good & hungry.  Mead is a big challenge for yeast,
even more if it's high in gravity.



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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:36:49 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Holey pipes, Batman...

In the HOMEBREW Digest #3175 G. Hipple wrote:

"Muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is a very strong acid you can get at a 
hardware store or pool supply. Be sure to follow the precautions on the 
bottle. Wear gloves and safety goggles. Make sure you can properly handle 
the carboy and have an accessible place >>>to pour it out<<<..."

I would like to add  "AFTER the acid is neutralized with ammonia" to the 
above bit of advice. How much ammonia? Until the solution turns bluish and 
the baking soda that you have on hand stops foaming up when added.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:43:14 EST
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: Hypochloritebier

In einer eMail vom 19.11.99 06:12:55 (MEZ) Mitteleuropische Zeit 
schreibt 
homebrew-request@hbd.org:

>  I would follow this "no rinse" advice only when attempting a Classic
>  German Hypochloritebier or perhaps a Dunkel Hypochloritebier

Hey, Phil,

if you have such kind of prejudices on German beers, you probably didn't 
yet 
drink Belorussian beer from any of the small scale landbreweries, usually 
meant to give the consumer an alternative to pure alcohol or anti-ice 
liquids. That's taste!!!

Keep on t(e/a)sting!

Volker

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:12:38 -0500
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net>
Subject: Dave Burley, ?? to 1999, rest in peace

It is with a heavy heart that I announce that Dave Burley has apparently
died sometime after 11/15/1999 and before 11/17/1999, or at least
11/19/1999.  Oddly enough he predicted his own death saying that he
would die before another day with all odd digits comes on the calendar.
Dave Burley wrote:
 - --------------------------------------------
I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99
because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd).
This is the last one we will ever see. After this,
there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. The
next Even Day will be 2/2/2000, the first since
8/28/888 (just in case you're keeping track....).
 - --------------------------------------------.
I must admit that I always have felt that unlike some many posters on
HBD, Dave always checked his facts and never jumped to conclusions.

We will all miss him.

Bret Morrow, with major tongue in cheek
Hamden, CT

THIS IS A JOKE!


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:58:28 -0500
From: Mike Bardallis <dbgrowler at provide.net>
Subject: Rose hips

Ruth asks about rose hips. I don't know about beer, but they make for an
excellent mead. Paul Gatza made 4 sweet dessert meads for the AHA
banquet in Olathe including red raspberry, marionberry(similar to
loganberry), and rose hip. All were lovely, but the rose hip was the
unanimous favorite. If I recall correctly, Paul used 2 pounds of rose
hips to five gallons. Absolutely murder with cheesecake...

Mike Bardallis
dbgrowler at provide.net

MIY2K Events Team

Secretary/GROWLER Editor
Downriver Brewers Guild


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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:14:51 -0800
From: Greg Hammond <reeftank at pacbell.net>
Subject: Odd Days...Not Blue!

Okay, the last completely odd-numbered day was actually 11/19/99, not 11/15,
and will be for some time...more than a thousand years.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:29:47 +1000
From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au>
Subject: Summer Brewing / wheat



Thanks for all the kind people who replied to me call for ideas regarding
high temp brewing. I hope to summarise the post more completely when
managing the quality of this fine nations wheat crop subsides a little.
We're mid harvest and flat out here.

Anyhow the consensus seems to be beers of Belgian origin seem to be the
ones to go for higher temp brewing, or a weizen, but mid to high 20's could
produce more banana that this monkey could handle!

Other options were the well designed systems of cooling such as boxes with
ice, airconditioning, wet towels and fans and the fridge. It will be next
summer before the fridge works out for me but I look forward to that and
the complete control it deserves.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------

Next question would be are there any styles of beer that utilise high
proportions of unmalted wheat. I take it we'd be looking at low protein
soft white wheats rather than bread wheat. Any comments?

Rgds and thanks again.

Darren Robey



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Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:54:05 -0800
From: Jack Straw <jstraw79 at pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Wheat Stuck mash

>>>Actually, Belgian Wit is my "House Beer".  I make several a year,
with no
protein rests.  I usually mash in at 154F, with 40-50% raw wheat, and I
use a
RIMS system.  I have never had a slow or stuck sparge with one of my
Wits.<<<

I have had the same results, and I attribute it to using a high
enzymatic two row grain in with the raw wheat...The high enzymes will
take care of that nasty wheat goo that can be such a  headache.  Please,
correct me if I am wrong here fellas, for this was only an assumption,
affirmed by one of the boys down at Sierra Nevada.

Cheers,
Peter
- --
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
 -Ben Franklin

Check out my show list  at 
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/gala/6928/CDRS.html



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:59:48 -0600
From: Mike Uchima <uchima at pobox.com>
Subject: dry hopping with pellets

In HBD #3176, Dan Kiplinger says:

> Mike Uchima says: "Dry-hopping with pellets, OTOH, can be kind of a PITA,
> since whirlpooling is not an option!"
>
> This simply is not true.  I use almost exclusively pellitized hops and
> whirlpool with great success.  When the level of the kettle is low enough to
> see the pile in the center of the kettle, I see no evidence that of any of
> the trub or hops have broken off from the pile.  [snip]

Re-read what I wrote... I said *dry-hopping*, i.e. adding hops to the
secondary fermenter.  Whirlpooling a carboy full of fermented beer would
be a neat trick. :-)  Not to mention, I'd have to wait several days for
the beer to fall clear again.

I agree that using pellet hops in the kettle should not be a problem, I
do it all the time.

- -- 
== Mike Uchima == uchima at pobox.com ==


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:49:18 -0500
From: "Sherfey" <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: RE: BT Back Issues

I got mine last Wednesday.  Two buyers guides and four back issues.  Perhaps
a little more patience is in order?

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:48:56 EST
From: Ballsacius at aol.com
Subject: Thanksgiving

It is the time of year to sit back(with a homebrew ;^)  ), reflect and give 
thanks. I would like to give thanks to the collective of this digest. 
Everytime, I had a newbie question (open this can with what?), to my trial 
with partial mash, to my decision to go all-grain...YOU, The COLLECTIVE, has 
always rised to the occasion and provided me with the help and wisdom that 
comes from experience. I have seen my beers increase in quality and my 
appreciation for beer and my fellow man climb higher then I could have 
imagined just years ago. To everybody on this digest, I raise my glass and 
salute.....THANK YOU!


Bob Fesmire
Madman Brewery
Pottstown, PA


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:01:00 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: In this corner...

From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>

>OK. You need a $0.19 bushing to adapt the Maltmill shaft to a standard pulley.
Big deal. I see no basis for a gripe here either!

Glad I read the whole digest before responding.  Thanks for the kind words.
Just one nit picking point....

If we are told when ordering, that the mill is to be motorized, we include a
pair of said bushings at no extra cost and automatically do so if the Gear Drive
Option is purchsed.

We also pay very high commissions to people who say nice things about our
products.  I just need your mailing address Pat.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:20:21 -0600
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: St. Paul brew stop

Collective -

Russ Hobaugh says he's gonna be in St. Paul soon and wants to know where 
to stop in for a brew.

To which I say, Russ, get on over to Sherlock's Home in Minnetonka. Just 
plain good. It is just north of the Crosstown (Highway 62) on the east 
side of Shady Oak road. Maybe a bit of a ways from St. Paul, but very much 
worth it, IMO.

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:08:27 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Clone info: Alaskan Amber

Dearest collective,
    In hopes of recruiting a new soul to the elite ranks of homebrewing, I
am looking for a recipe for Alaskan Amber. Any suggestions? TIA


Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:15:20 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: BT is dead---Perhaps not

In HBD #3176 rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn) wrote:

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate to write this article because I am *NOT* a fan of Zymurgy nor of the
AHA in recent years...but honesty demands it.

The prompt is: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com> wrote:
Subject: BT back issue order
> Has anybody received anything from BT after the letter offering to settle
> accounts due with back issues? I dutifully sent in my back issue request
and
> have been waiting ever since. Glad I've not been holding my breath.

This is an echo of various notes on rec.crafts.brewing, where nobody has
heard a word from BT about back issues or any other sort of compensation.
Apparently they botched the finances, folded, took the money (whatever was
left of it after they screwed up!), and ran.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I can't speak for everyone but in all fairness, I must report that BT
treated me well.  I had an article in for publication but it didn't make it
before the collapse.  Last week I received a package from BT that included
all the photos I had submitted for the article, a copy of the article and,
a Zip disk containing the article.  It was dated November 10.  I would take
a wait and see on this.  It seems people at BT are still working the
problem.  Wonder how they are getting paid. 

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:15:34 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Philmill II

All this talk of mills on the HBD has moved me to severly risk being
accused of advertizing and point out that last week we started shipping a

new player on the mill market called the Philmill II.  Check it out at
listermann.com ( notice the double "n"s) It is nice and priced to 
compete. 

 



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:25:52 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons at AlliedSignal.com>
Subject: Benzene in Dry Ice

I usually stay on the sidelines for most of these discussions, but the
debate about dry ice containing Benzene got my dander up.

Almost all of the CO2 produced in this country is a byproduct of methane
reforming. The methane (CH4) is cracked using a catalyst into CO and H2, the
CO is oxidized to CO2, and the CO2 is removed using an amine solution. Most
of the H2 is used to make ammonia, or is used in the production of gasoline
and other petrochemicals. The C02 is sold to one of several companies. BOC
gasses, Air Liquide, and Praxair control about 90% of the market. They clean
and purify the C02 gas, then either liquefy it for shipping or make it into
dry ice. The cleaning step involves carbon filtration (to remove organics,
like benzene), compression and separation based on relatively different
boiling points of the constituent gasses. The dry ice step is just a simple
refrigeration step, just like making water (wet?) ice.

Almost all of the CO2 produced this way is sold to brewers, soft drink
bottlers, bars and restaurants, and welding supply houses (where you get
your CO2 bottle filled). These end users have very strict standards for
impurities, in the ppb range. The ammonia plant I work makes CO2 that goes
into Coke, Pepsi, Bud, Miller, Pete's Wicked, and almost every micro or
brewpub beer made in the Mid-Atlantic. The dry ice that our customers make
is used to amuse schoolchildren and ship frozen food all over the world. If
there is benzene in dry ice, it is also in almost every fizzy thing you buy
or make, if you force carbonate. 

There are reasons not to use dry ice in homebrew (foamovers and bottle
bombs, mainly), but benzene contamination isn't one of them. 


Frank Timmons
James River Homebrewers


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:41:15 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: BT backlash

I, as much as anyone, miss BT.  Maybe more than most.  The
quality of the people and product were, and are, beyond
reproach.  Your accusations of unseemly business practices are a
bit premature.

When a company is dissolved and has outstanding credits to repay,
there is an order which people are paid back.  As might be
expected, the banks get first crack at any assets.  It is likely
that BT also had/has outstanding debits to collect, and is trying
to get the money it is owed as well.  There are a whole series of
people (my finance textbook is at home) who would get repaid
before subscribers.  Generally speaking, the people who are owed
MORE money get repaid first.  So, BT probably has 2000+ people
who are each owed ~$30 (subscription price), and a few people who
are owed much more than that.  Legally speaking, subscribers are
on the bottom of the totem pole.  In a normal liquidation of
assets you can sell off equipment in a "fire sale" and get some
cash to repay outstanding debts.  For a magazine who outsourced
all of the printing and publication, they probably have very
little in the way of PPE (property, plant, & equipment) to sell.
A few computers, a nice poster, the microwave, but not much else.

I know that Deb, Stephen, Gail, and the others at BT will take
care of the subscribers to the best of their ability.  An
example:  I had written a review for "The Homebrewer's Garden"
months ago which was scheduled for publication in the now
ill-fated June/July issue.  Just this week I received a floppy
disk and a letter from Deb Jolda (Editor) stating that they were
returning the copyright to the article and a copy suitable for
publication to me.  I found this to be an act of genuine class,
showing that they are trying to make good on all the promises of
an organization that ceases to be.  It would have been easier to
simply reformat the hard drives and move on than to send me that
information.

BT gave a voice and forum to those who find both the art and
science of brewing to be what its all about.  I am forever
grateful to them for allowing an unknown writer (me) to submit a
research article which they found suitable for publication.  As
with many articles that appeared in BT, mine was recognized with
a Quill and Tankard Award
(http://www.beerwriters.org/writer/awards99.html).  I say this
less as self-promotion (although it is my proudest achievement in
years of brewing) than to remind people of the great service that
BT provided all brewers interested in taking their skills to the
next level.

Basically, I'd suggest you have a little patience before
slandering a good organization that was squeezed out by shrinking
market forces.  Wrapping up an organization is not an easy or
pretty site.  Give them time and I have no doubt they will make
good on as many obligations as they have the resources to do so.
Financially speaking, it's a little early to get feisty.

I have stepped down off my soapbox.

 -Marc Sedam


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:35:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: FWH reference Questions

Bob.Sutton at fluor.com wrote:

>Jeff Renner provided a superb summary of the FWH evaluations at two
>breweries...

I want to make it clear that this superb summary was written by erstwhile
HBDer Dave Draper, not by me.  Dave seems to be too busy being a rocket
scientist (geologist for NASA, actually) to have time to contribute to HBD
these days.  I hope he has time to brew for himself, at least.

Can't help on your question, though.  I'd suggest going to the archives
where George Fix provided more detail.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:15:12 -0800
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Corona Mill

Contractor Bob writes:
>There are many grain mills available on eBay.  Corona hand mills are
selling
>from $25 to $40. If they are any good.

Aye, there's the rub.  I started with a Corona and it was adequate.  The
problem is that the Corona is designed to mill grain into flour, and so
it shreds rather than crushes.

The surmountable problems were:
 -continuously adjusting the gap (because it would work loose-- it wasn't
made to be cranked with a gap that big)
 -refilling the hopper frequently (the big hopper only held about 1.5
#'s)
 -cranking till my arm fell off (thus the one handed typing job)
 -watching the grain carefully to make sure that the crush wasn't too
fine, but it wasn't completely whole, either (see first point)
 -discharge in a wide band, which I rectified by putting a gallon ziplock
around the crush-plate.

It's fine for starting off, and the price can't be beat.  If you're
planning on seeing how this grain stuff works, try it out.  But if
you're committed to going all grain, I'd pick up a mill suitable to the
job.

Rick




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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:29:01 -0800
From: Ron West <ronwes at halcyon.com>
Subject: BT has taken the money and ran - NOT!

In response to a post regarding BT mag's "cheating and double-dealing"
where the statement was made that nobody

> has heard a word from BT about back issues or any other sort of
> compensation.  Apparently they botched the finances, folded, took the
> money (whatever was left of it after they screwed up!), and ran.

Not true.  I can't speak for anyone else, most especially for anyone who
may have held out for a monetary refund.  But speaking for myself, I did
receive all the compensatory back issues I was due, along with several
additional issues that I added to my collection.  This was several weeks
ago now.



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:03:36 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: RE: BT is dead; long live Zymurgy

From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
> ... nobody has heard a word from BT about back issues or any other
> sort of compensation. Apparently they botched the finances,
> folded, took the money (whatever was left of it after they screwed
> up!), and ran.
> ...
> Well, nobody's got anything so far, and it means that somebody is
> cheating and double-dealing.  I was holding out for money
> back--meaning that's what I'd asked for, but not that I ever
> expected it to happen from a company that couldn't manage its
> basic finances.  
> ...
> Shame, BT.  Shame!  You've not only killed yourself, but by your
> failure to deliver even on your shut-down promises, you've killed
> any future magazine.

Whoa, Dick.  These are pretty strong words and nasty aspersions to
be casting about rather glibly.  

You have NO IDEA of the financial details of the demise of BT.  My
guess is that the subscribers are last in line to receive any
compensation under the conditions of the demise (bankruptcy?).  If BT
did go bankrupt the subscribers are last in line BY LAW.  I expect
that banks, paper suppliers, and printers, are all ahead of us
subscribers in that line.  You're whining about your paltry $20-50.  
The banks and suppliers of BT are worried about tens of thousands of
dollars or more.  The principles of BT are also probably dealing with
personal losses of similar amounts.

So, lighten up, man, these people are mourning the death of a loved
one, trying to pick up the pieces, and you're at the funeral bitching
that the deceased owed you a few bucks!  These things take time, often
it is years before full resolution.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:37:12 -0500
From: "Menegoni, Lee" <Lee.Menegoni at compaq.com>
Subject: Expanded grain hoppers for Malt Mill  / JSP customer service

I have duct taped the cardboard box that a 12 pack of Catamount Christmas
Ale came in to the original wood hopper.  All most an exact fit.  This setup
holds all the grain for a 5 gallon batch. 

JSP 's customer service is superb.  A brewing buddy of mine had a mill with
the original design rollers, groves that ran the length of the roller.
These rollers got damaged by motorizing and crushing floor malted grains
that had small rocks.  The mill still crushed fine but the rollers were
scored from the rocks.  He contacted JSP and for little more than the cost
of shipping JSP promptly replaced the rollers with the newer knurled model.


With all the whining we see on this digest over mail order purchases and
specific vendors I have never seen anyone complain about JSP products or
services.

Attilio "Lee" Menegoni


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:06:42 -0600
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Valley Mill

John Wilkinson (Beer Drinker Extraordinairre) writes in HBD 3175 about 
the Valley Mill
 -snip-
>I not infrequently during the grind of my usual 20 pounds (US) of grain
>have the mill stall until I poke at it a bit or sometimes have to empty
>the hopper, restart, and refill.  I attribute this to the passive
>roller not being driven, for some reason, by the grain. 
 -snip-

I am a happy owner of the Valley Mill and have put _a_lot_ of grain
through it.  I often double crush my malt, as someone else has
suggested, to acheive better extraction.  When putting the once crushed
grain through, I also have to poke at it a bit to get it going.

As a data point, I do adjust the gap in the mill based on type of
grain.  I find a real difference between domestic six row, Hugh Baird
Pale Ale Malt (winter barley), American two row, German (or Czech) two
row, and wheat malt (which I typically grind the finest).

I have also motorized my mill with a motor from Burden's Surplus Center,
which makes it very nice.  BTW, I think that I still have the board that
Pat was grumbling about that I bought with the mill.  If anyone wants
it, I'll send it for the cost of shipping.  

Eric Schoville
Flower Mound, TX


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:27:15 -0600 (CST)
From: John Wilkinson <John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com>
Subject: Valley Mill

Grant Knechtel writes:

>John Wilkinson writes in HBD 3175 about the Valley Mill
> -snip-
>>I not infrequently during the grind of my usual 20 pounds (US) of grain
>>have the mill stall until I poke at it a bit or sometimes have to empty
>>the hopper, restart, and refill.  I attribute this to the passive
>>roller not being driven, for some reason, by the grain. 
> -snip-
>Another data point.  I am part owner of a Valley Mill, and have never had 
>the mill "stall" in numerous batches with up to 25 lbs of grist.  Perhaps 
>John has motorized his mill, and the power source is inadequate?

I have motorized my Valley Mill but I don't think the 1/3 horse motor is
inadequate.  I drive it with a V-belt and it will slip if a rock gets stuck
in the rollers but that is not my problem.  My problem is the slave roller
stalling while the driven roller still turns.  The slave roller is driven by
the grain passing between it and the driven roller.  I had more problems when
I tried double milling but as I saw no discernible improvement in double
milling I abandoned that.  I always brush off dust, etc., from the rollers
before I start milling but sometimes have the mentioned problem.



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:22:34 -0600
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: Ebooks Byte Brewery

	This just in from my Portland, OR sister:  Amazon.com has expressed
interest in moving its central offices from Seattle to Portland, OR and more
specifically to the much-bewept Blitz Weinhard brewery in the Pearl District
a few doors down from Powell's Books.  The Blitz Weinhard brewery was closed
this year when Miller bought up most of Stroh's and that brewer's associated
labels and contracts.  The mayor of Portland, of course, could barely get up
a quote for the press what with all the saliva.  Industry officials
expressed some reservations based largely on the fact that Amazon is
notoriously over-extended even among E companies and the fact that strong
interest from many quarters in the building will likely produce a top-dollar
final price tag.  Need I mention, also, that perhaps the transmogrification
of a once proud regional brewery into a ecompany might be an allegory for
our times.  Click here for a virtual beer.

Mike


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:43:18 -0800
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: wheat lauter/last odd day/stealth and sudden violence

collective homebrew conscience_

robin g wrote:

>A question was asked about lautering high proportion wheat beers. <snip>
>The gentleman said that he decocts; this could lead to problems couldn't
it, >due to gelatinization of the mash during decoction? Perhaps lautering
is >easier when we infuse or step, rather than decoct.


my personal experience has been exactly the opposite.  when i don't decoct,
wheat malt becomes a bigger problem when lautering.

the one piece of advice i would pass on to any of you embarking on the ">50%
wheat" grain bill path is this:  when you start your runoff out of the
lauter tun, run it off slowly.  with my setup (phalse bottom), if i start
the flow at too fast a rate, the bed compacts and the flow slows
irrecoverably.  if i start the runoff slowly, i can get up to an acceptable
flow rate gradually with no problems.


dave burley recently wrote:

>I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99
>because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd).
>This is the last one we will ever see. After this,
>there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111.

11/17/99 and 11/19/99 also qualify.  i am surprised nobody came out of the
woodwork to launch an attack on dave for this.  what's happened to the
digest?  can't we get a decent flame war going any more?  clinitest!!
botulism!! schmidling for president!!


also, there was this recently:

>From: peter gough <pgough at ameritech.net>
>Subject: wyeast

>I AM JUST A BEGINNER AT YEAST CULTURES I HAVE ALWAYS USED >DRY YEAST CAN
>ANYONE HELP ME AND GIVE ME ANY INFORMATION ON HOW TO >SUCCESSFULLY DO


poor guy.  "liddil" did he know jim was lurking right behind him, waiting to
whack him at the first sign of the "w" word.

it's late november and i haven't struck the first pot of water for the
brewing season.  3 kids under 3 will do that to you, i guess.  i wonder how
al k's output has been this year.  haven't seen much from him lately.

brew hard, (hypocrite! hypocrite!)

mark bayer


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:24:48 -0500
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Dry-hopping

Robin Griller just pointed out to me that I misunderstood what Mike Uchima
wrote.  I did read it wrong.  He said DRY-hopping was a pain because you
can't whirlpool.  When I read it (and even copied it to my message!) I
didn't even notice the word "dry".

I'm sorry for the mix-up and I think I'm going to stop reading the post@ 2
in the morning before I hit the sack. ;-)

Dan


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:07:51 -0700
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <EdgeAle at cs.com>
Subject: BT back issues

I sent Rob Jones private emil on this but after reading Dick Dunn
condemnation of BT for failure to deliver back issues I have to chirp in on
their defense.

I used my subscription refund to order the latest BT Market Guide (I have
all the back issues). It arrived about a week or two ago.

I wouldn't give up on your back issues yet.

Dana

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell              mailto:EdgeAle at cs.com
Edge Ale Brewery         http://ourworld.cs.com/EdgeAle
San Diego

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:31:25 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Multiple milling, Really open fermentations

Brewsters:

Keith MacNeal asks if I can define
"substantially better"
as it relates to my method of double milling of malt.

The details are in the archives, but milling
coarse first  ( just so the grain is being cracked)
removes the husk whole, cracks the grain to
a uniform size ( about 6 pieces), but larger
than desired for good extraction. On the
second pass ( 0.06 in nip), the husks are
not milled smaller and the grist is uniformly
sized to the desired size with low flour content.

My experience with a single pass is that if it
is too large ( as in  Homebrew store), extraction
can drop by several points depending on the
relative size of the grists ( like from the 90s %
to 75%)  and if too small, the husks get ground
also and milling is intermidable. Worse, the
small husk size ( from getting "chewed" off
the grain) in the too small nip and high flour
content can lead to a slow or stuck sparge.
 Double milling actually takes less time than
a protracted small size single milling, since the
grain is pulled into the nip easily and gives
substantially better sparging due to the whole
husks.

I have to restrict the flow out of my lauter tun
 with a valve, so that I don't sparge too fast.  If
I didn't, I would be finished sparging in 15
minutes or less, with consequent loss of
extraction. Take an hour to sparge, since the
sugars need to diffuse into the sparging solution.

This milling method allows me to use a rapid
sparge method when making rye beers. Since
the viscosity of these worts is extremely
temperature and concentration dependent.
This is the reason most brewers have trouble
with rye worts spargings. To overcome this, I
pull off all the hot wort as rapidly as possible,
rinse the bed with hot sparge water, combine
these sparges, heat them back to 170F and
put this hot, diluted solution back through the 

grain bed to clarify it.  Works great! I get
good recovery and the sparge goes 

smoothly and I am in control of the rate.
Sparge the bed with the remaining half of the
sparge water.

This is what I mean by "substantially better."
A complete improvement across the board
in the extraction process. 

- ---------------------------------------------
Robin cites the brewing process of centuries
ago as demonstrating the nonsense of
yeast becoming contaminated from exposure
to the air in a truly open fermentation.

I do not deny that yeast has been fermented
in the open for centuries. I also have no proof
that the yeast were not contaminated - do you?
I suspect they were to some extent, as many
beers were enjoyed mixed with acidic "old"
or "stale" beers.  This sort of taste might have
been desirable over the centuries as it is less
cloying in the , low alpha acid hopped, heavy
beers of the time AND it may have been a
natural consequence of British fermenting
styles - sort of like Momma's cooking.

There is also the oft told danger of
"yeast-bitten" beer from letting the head fall
back in. Both AlK and I agree this is false.
How could this rumor have been started?
Perhaps by tasting the fermentation head
comprised of protein/tannin complexes
insoluble in beer or perhaps by
contaminated yeast?

In British open brewing, the head was
routinely skimmed on a daily or more
basis to prevent this head from falling
back in. This would have prevented or
reduced contamination. Maybe it is a
case of right action for the wrong reason.

There is a second issue and that is the
surface to volume ratio of the swimming
pool size fermenters and your measley
5 or ten gallon brew. Calculate the relative
surface to volume ratio and you appreciate
the difference in exposure ratio.

If I take a ~100,000 gallon fermenter as being
30X30X10 ft deep, I get an exposure of
900 sq ft/100.000 gal compared to your
fermenter with about ~3 sq ft and 5 gallons
That is a ratio of 0.009 vs 0.6 sq ft per gallon
or about 66 times less exposure in the case
of the old timey British brewery. A taller
fermenter would be an even greater difference.
Many fermenters were larger and deeper
than this. Modern use of the open fermenter
is done in a closed room under positive
pressure with automatic skimming.

Ask yourself, if it was so good why did
they change?
 

The real danger of using a truly open
fermentation is if you are recycling your
yeast, then repeated contamination over
time can cause a problem. Why not close
it up with a plastic sheet? It works great
and no cats or kids can fall in! I also cover
mine with a lid to prevent light from skunking it.

Keep on Brewin'


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:32:47 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Benzene and public safety

Brewsters:

Page down if you don't want to read about
properly describing chemical dangers, politics,
public safety and how it affects your life.
Sorry for the rant, but a nerve got hit and the 

HBD is light at the moment.

Glen Pannicke says about Benzene:

"Benzene is a carcinogen"

Unless I missed something, it has been only
proven so in specially selected, tumor
susceptible mice. But, he is right it is
*legally* a carcinogen.

And he says benzene is highly toxic and is
absorbed through the skin, through ingestion
and breathing the vapors.

In my own experience, benzene is not toxic in the
sense I believe this word should be used. - that is
poisonous and life threatening.  As a chemist, I and
millions of other chemists used to wash in this stuff
and breathe it routinely. Chemists as a group have
lower cancer rates than the general population, as
do chemical workers.  In large quantities, over a long
time ( hardly a toxin), I do believe that it can have
an effect on your liver, as can many aromatics.
If so, this was proven by studies of humans and
does have meaning. Maybe epidemiological 

studies on human populations are now available
demonstrating the clear carcinogenicity of benzene.
I have never seen them.

Let's clarify the information source and specify the
effect so we can be better informed and not be
continually ravaged by the words "toxic chemical"
which has taken on emotional meanings in the
media, because of the general non-understanding
of the reporters and the need to make headlines. And
their failure to understand what a toxin is.

I know of no human example in which cancer was
caused by benzene. 


This doesn't mean we should be sloppy, but let's
stop crying wolf and supporting a flawed system
of evaluation of danger ( tumor susceptible mice),
so we know where to spend our resources and
of what to be really careful. Let's not mix politics
and public safety as now happens - in spades. 


Every statement about chemical safety should
be prefaced by "In tumor susceptible mice and
specially selected strains of hairless, poor
immune system mice... No studies of humans
were carried out". Often, in studies I have
seen ( and that is quite a few) when we were
preparing MSDS sheets for every chemical in
the 1970s , it was routine that so many of the control
mice died it was difficult to determine the effect.
Sometimes, more control mice died or had more
tumors than the test mice, but no one proposed
this blatantly excess chemical treatment  as a
cure for cancer!  Use of sloppy statistics and
discarding of "outliers" or should I say
"out-right liars" often justified the study for the
Ph.D. candidate and his Prof's grant from the
NIH or whoever and resulted in the classificaton
of the substance as a problem. Call me sceptical.

It is possible that benzene could be in dry ice,
depending on the source of the dry ice, it will
likely be infinitesimal, but it is conceivable . Remember
the fairly recent withdrawal of Perrier water because
PPB (?) of benzene somehow got in the water from 

a pumping station or something. My opinion of this?
A waste of time, money and reputation for fear of 

litigation based on the false premise that if giant
quantities of an injected  chemical disrupts the
immune systems of a susceptible rodent,and
prevent it from fighting tumors, then ANY quantity
will be labeled a carcinogen. This is on the lawbooks.

Just like it is the law that anything which has ever been
radioactive is considered to be *legally* radioactive
and has to be handled accordingly, despite
the fact that the  radioactive substances have
been removed. What is the result of this absurd 

law? Potentially, millions of gallons of low-grade
radioactive water leaking into our water supply,
since there is no good way to dispose of the
purified water and it is thus cheaper to store it. 

Buried steel tanks leak after 30 or 40 years 

as has been demonstrated in Washington
state. This law may be one more tool in the
lobbying efforts of Big Coal, Oil and Gas to 

make safe, cheap, pollution-free Nuclear energy
too expensive for the US. Call me paranoid.

I want people to be careful, but be sceptical, so
we are not fooled and make bad long-term
decisions for this nation based on bad information.
Public safety is the wrong place to cry "wolf".

In making homebrew, being careful is very important,
since this is a hobby which can involve immediately
dangerous things like pressure tanks, boiling
water, slippery 5 gallon glass carboys weighing 50 lbs
and possibly real toxins like botulin toxins.
As a hobby, we often try to do things that present a
real danger, as our enthusiam takes over our
better judgement. I do not promote that kind
of behavior. Always think through what you
are doing if you are using a piece of equipment
that is not intended for the purpose and develop
an appropriate exit strategy. It doesn't take
long to get hurt permanently.
- ----------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley
 

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:36:10 -0500
From: feldman at lexmark.com
Subject: Odd Days?

Dave writes:
>I hope you all had a wonderful day on 11/15/99
>because it was an Odd Day (every digit is odd).
>This is the last one we will ever see. After this,
>there won't be an Odd Day until 1/1/3111. The
>next Even Day will be 2/2/2000, the first since
>8/28/888 (just in case you're keeping track....).
>- --------------------------------------------
>Keep on Brewin'

And I reply:

I also had a wonderful day (although quite odd) on 11/17/99 and aslo on
11/19/99.
I also remember 01:23:45 6/7/89 which doesn't happen very often unless you count
12:34:56 7/8/90 etc. etc.

Bobby (looking forward to 12:34:56.7 8/9/10)
B.O.C.K.



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:17:53 -0800
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: gelatinization

collective homebrew conscience_

i just re-read the following:

(robin g wrote)

>The gentleman said that he
>decocts; this could lead to problems couldn't it, due to gelatinization
>of the mash during decoction? Perhaps lautering is easier when we infuse
>or step, rather than decoct.

the insinuation here (at least the way it reads to me) is that
decoction-mashed beers undergo gelatinization and infusion-mashed beers do
not.  barley malt gelatinizes at (roughly) 147 to 153 deg f., thus
gelatinization should occur in most of our mashing adventures, regardless of
mashing method (decoc vs. infus).

for loads more info., search the hbd archives on "scandrett", circa 1997 or
so.
 
just a nit.

brew hard,

mark bayer


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