HOMEBREW Digest #3178 Thu 25 November 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Millennium and mead! (David Johnson)
  Re. Scotch Ale ("Dean Fikar")
  First Wort Hopping (Matthew Arnold)
  BT back issues (Anderson)
  Sierra Nevada Summerfest Recipe (J Daoust)
  A new method of support for the Digest... (Pat Babcock)
  One for the Aussies again ("Darren Robey")
  Benzene, Odd Day, and Dr. Pepper Stout (James Jerome)
  Home Malting/Breadmaking ("Keith Menefy")
  Re: Unmalted wheat (KMacneal)
  BT - Thanks Stephen Mallery ("Rob Jones")
  Question on Welding Aluminum (Alan McKay)
  Rose hips ("Frank J. Russo")
  Benzene and public safety ("Peter J. Calinski")
  BT ... I'll miss it! ("Brian Dixon")
  Re: wheat (Jeff Renner)
  Benzene: "Toxic" or "Non-Toxic"? (Paul Hausman)
  further to open fermentation (Robin Griller)
  decoctions, oops used the wrong word! (Robin Griller)
  Russian Imperial Stout ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Ammonia/Yeast bite (AJ)
  Benzene as a  human carcinogen ("Alan Meeker")
  RE: Hoegaarden gone soft?! ("Houseman, David L")
  dry hopping with pellets ("Houseman, David L")
  Refrigerator Woes ("Luke Van Santen")
  RE: Hoegararden (Pat Babcock)
  Help With Cloning ("Weaver T. Capt - 43MDG/SGOAM")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:35:13 -0500 (EST) From: David Johnson <dmjohnson at pol.net> Subject: Millennium and mead! Befor I get into the main part of my post, I am finally caught up with the HBD and thus qualified to post again after many months. Not wanting to sound more ignorant than I am. In answer to the post about the stuck mead, I notice that he said he had 15lbs of honey in a 5 gal. batch and ended up with an OG of 1.145-150. This seems a little high to me. He would have gotten about 50 points of gravity from each pound of honey. I wonder about measurement here. That sweet mead yeast is not a great fermenter of low nutrient musts. On the Mead lovers digest I have read about a lot of stuck fermentations with it. I don't think your experience is that much off the usual for that yeast getting about an 80 point gravity drop on a low nutrient must seems about right(ABV of 10%?). I do wonder about the gravity readings. Either the weight of honey , the volume of the must, or the gravity readings you have seem to be off. I have taken to using Lalvin yeasts. Lots of beer brewers denigrate dried yeasts, but many mead and wine makers find the dried products more than adequate for our needs. I am also using Lalvin D-47 for cider this year. I lend my support to those that realize that the Millennium is not yet upon us (good for us procrastinators). On the other hand the meeting in Detroit might be a good warm up. When do we start planning the Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:49:37 -0600 From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net> Subject: Re. Scotch Ale Scotch ale/visiting St. Paul ("Russ Hobaugh") > > > >I am looking for advice on brewing a strong scotch ale. >I would like it to have some smoky presence through >the use of peat smoked malt, but don't know how much >to use. > > Here's a recipe snippet from the first smoked Strong Scotch Ale I brewed which turned out great (full recipe details are on p. 50 of the current Zymurgy). I smoked 4.5 pounds of grain over oak in a dedicated smoker for about 2 hrs. One word of caution: This beer was WAY SMOKY for about 3-4 mos. (I darned near tossed it!) then it mellowed quite nicely. Smoked Wee Heavy #1 Batch size: 7 gal. OG: 1.089 FG: 1.029 Efficiency: 77 % IBU: 22 Color (SRM): 18 Grain bill: Belgian CaraVienne 1.00 lbs. Belgian Aromatic 1.00 lbs. Belgian CaraMunich 1.00 lbs. Belgian Munich 2.00 lbs. Smoked Pale Malt 4.50 lbs. British Pale 13.00 lbs. Roasted Barley 2.00 oz. Belgian Special-B 6.00 oz. East Kent Goldings 6.8 % 1.50 oz. 75 min. Yeast: Wyeast 1338 (slurry from last batch) Mash Specifics: 1.) Infused 6.75 gal. water at 162F for a 20 min. rest at 150F. 2.) Mash heated by steam to 155F then rested for 70 min. Boil time: 100 min. - --------------------------------------------- Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:50:21 -0600 From: Matthew Arnold <revmra at iname.com> Subject: First Wort Hopping I've used First Wort Hopping on my IPA. It provides some spectacular hop flavor, way better than any other method I have tried. Here's the recipe, for those of you who care: Lion Fan in Packerland Extremely Bitter IPA (assumes 70% mash efficiency) 12# Pale Ale malt .5# 40L Crystal .5# Victory malt .5# Carapils malt 2 oz Galena (12% AA--60 minutes) 2 oz Cascade (3.5% AA--1 oz FWH, 1 oz dry hop) 2 oz Northern Brewer (8.5% AA--.5 oz FWH, .5 oz--10 minutes, 1 oz dry hop) Your favorite English ale yeast (I prefer Whitbread aka Wyeast #1098) It's the closest I've come to the "wall of hops" beer. Very tasty, IMO. I've also used Columbus in the place of Galena. My big question is this: How do people calculate the bitterness contributed from the first-wort hops? Based on the article Jeff R. quoted, I've always calculated them as if they were added with 20 minutes left in the boil. I've seen others who say that you should figure a _greater_ bitterness contribution than if you added them at the start of the boil! Obviously, it doesn't matter much with this recipe. The more bitterness with an IPA, the merrier! But I want to try my hand at a pilsner again this winter. Such a delicate beer could be thrown way out of whack by over-bittering. Thoughts? Hearsay? Innuendo? Thanks! Matt - ----- Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:20:21 -0800 From: Anderson <rsda at istar.ca> Subject: BT back issues As a Canadian who is long used to sucking at the hind tit when receiving US periodicals I am obliged to point out that I have in my hot little hand the back issues from BT in lieu of cash payout. I also note that Stephen Mallory has posted a credible explanation for the delay in mailing out the balance of back issues. I for one will not re-subscribe to Zymurgy. As a matter of fact I gave away 4 years of Zymurgy to a neophyte home-brewer. Which is where that magazine appears to be happiest - i.e. with the beginner. But I am quite willing to support a brewing magazine that straddles the line between serious amateurs and small-scale commercial breweries. I may never get around to starting my own brewery but this must be one of the few hobbies that the amateur has a real shot at turning pro. Dream on, Stuart Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:42:39 -0800 From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com> Subject: Sierra Nevada Summerfest Recipe Would anyone have a S.N Summerfest recipe floatin' around????? Thanks, Jerry Daoust Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:57:07 -0800 From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: A new method of support for the Digest... Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Folks, usually at this time I go begging for donations for some server project or other. This year, we're in good shape - mostly because of all the help you gave us back in September when the server did a major crash-and-burn. We have a new, bigger, faster box for the HBD, plus another (believe it or not: the original "Frankenserver" that was constructed when we took over the Digest three years ago!) online right alongside it to aid in future calamities. We also have one humming alongside me (the one that died such a horrible death back in September) which I am preparing to do a complete mirror of the main server. And to bone up on my Linux skills. Our goal this time out is to try and find a "renewable", constant means of support for the Digest servers. If we are able to, and the levels are high enough, we hope to bring the servers "home" on a DSL line. This will help in those instances where we reset the box, and she never comes back online - like a couple of weekends ago (blush). Unfortunately, the times I usually think to do such things are the least convenient in terms of when the staff at O&E are available to help (There is a method to my madness: it's usually Saturday night or Sunday evening. Sunday is a Digest-less day, anyway...). Anywho, we have stumbled upon this thing called "AllAdvantage" which, frankly, pays us to surf the net. Karl and I have both signed on with our receipts for participation funding the server. Karl referred me, so he gets paid for every minute I spend online, as well as every minute HE spends online. If I refer you, I'll get paid for every minute you spend online (so will you, and so does Karl). Anyone you refer, they get paid, you get paid, and I get paid. Kind of a no-pain MLM. There is a catch, though. There is a "bar" that lives in the bottom inch or so of my monitor. This bar gives me access to my AllAdvantage account, and gives them access to me. Frankly, they SPAM the living hell out of me by pumping adds into their viewbar. I've gotten used to it. And I've even "clicked through" a few times as the items/services displayed were of interest. The point being, they'll pay you for being on the web, and they'll pay me (thus, the HBD) for you being on the web, and they'll pay Karl (and thus the HBD) for you being on the web. Or on AOL, or writing a note in Netscape... If you'd like to participate in this, stop by http://hbd.org/alladvantage.html and it will tell you how to join the effort. We'd all appreciate your help. If not, please pardon this brief intrusion into your daily dose of the Digest! - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock/ "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:35:45 +1000 From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> Subject: One for the Aussies again OK fellow Aussies, I'm going to be in Perth in the next few weeks and was wonderingif anyone knew of any brew pubs or the like worth a visit. Not to sure just how much time I'll have there but it would be good to find a good watering hole rather than drink Emu Export at the local (no offence to any fans of the stuff if they exist) thanks Darren Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:56:54 +0000 From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net> Subject: Benzene, Odd Day, and Dr. Pepper Stout Hi, Ya'll The comments by Frank Timmons (HBD#3177) about CO2 are seconded by another industrial chemist (me). What he said is correct. When you have spent the last 3 months grilling suppliers about contaminants at the ppb level in delivered CO2 and NH3 for pharmaceutical applications, benzene is TRULY infinitesimal. Also, thank you Dave Burley for the diatribe (HBD#3177) concerning the fallacy of benzene toxicity in human subjects. My former organic professor washed his hands in copious amonts of benzene to remove the stench of trace thiols and mercaptans for 30 years before deciding to teach. He is retired now happily, cancer-free, at 80+ years old. Some studies have shown that Benzene derivatives are powerful intercalating agents on human DNA, but none of these studies have been done in vitro, and none implicate simple benzene (Kekule would be happy). By the way, I think Dave has performed a test on the Collective with his Odd Day Proclamation to see who was paying attention. Or maybe he was getting a bit chilly in November and decided to get some flame action happening just to keep warm. For those of you out there thinking of doing a mint stout, I suggest that you ONLY use peppermint as opposed to spearmint. I made a 5 gallon batch of stout and used a bunch of spearmint from my yard to flavor it. I called it 4 Nines Mint Chocolate Stout because I brewed it on 9/9/99. What I got was a very dark stout from a high malt bill that tastes exactly like I poured Dr. Pepper into a perfectly good stout. My wife says it tastes like medicine( but what does she know, she likes Rolling Rock). After two or three decent homebrews, it is drinkable, with a creamy vigorous head. Luckily I like Dr. Pepper. I'm hoping a couple of months will help, but I doubt it. At least I'm willing to drink it, but I learned a lesson. I'll try to follow the recipe in the future (it did specify Peppermint, but I ignored that). As to Alan Meeker's contemplation about writing a comprehensive book on the use of yeast in brewing...I'll buy the first copy. Your advice about pitching a LOT of yeast has improved my last couple of efforts tremendously (not including the mint stout-my bad). I'm almost at the point where I can intelligently make use of more detailed information. Write the book! I plan on celebrating New Year's with several good homebrews, but at midnight I crack open my little blue bottle of Samuel Adams Triple Bock from 1995. The tag on the bottle requests that I send my comments to the brewmaster, because they have no idea how it'll turn out. Can't wait. Eat Turkey, Drink Homebrew, Attempt to Watch Football, Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:15:27 +1300 From: "Keith Menefy" <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz> Subject: Home Malting/Breadmaking G'Day In HOMEBREW Digest #3167, 11/11/99 Clifton Moore writes: >I now have tons of good quality barley and a garage full of malting plant. >It is my hope that this post will stimulate some discussion. >Have at it. I'm not really surprised that this article has not generated much discussion. I am a wee bit in awe of anyone who can casually talk of homemalting in terms of tons. However, same view from a different angle. Love the idea of a climate controlled germination room. In my experience the only difference between undermodified and fully modified is time. As the grain grows it is using its stored water with no replenishment and the rate of growth slows down. With my system I can get 50 percent modified grain in 3 days in the germination box. To get the next 30 percent takes 3 more days. With my steeping process, apart from an initial 4hr soak, the grain is never left totally immersed in water for more than 5 minutes. The grain gets covered with fresh water, stirred to float of the debris, and then drained. The moist grain soaks up the available water and stays a lot healthier than with continuous steeping. More in line with what the seed gets in natural conditions. This gets repeated every few hours (or when I remember). The first rootlets start to emerge at about 30hrs when it is given a final drink and then into the germination box. In 'The Historical Companion to House-Brewing' by Clive La Pensee he recommends that the germination cycle of the grain be kept in the dark. He says it is something to do with photosynthesis, which doesn't make much sense to me, but it is closer to the natural germination conditions that the seed is expecting so I do it. It just seems to keep the synchrony of the germination at a fairly close level. He also recommends keeping it in the dark for drying and storage. I have come to prefer my home malted pale malts for flavour to the commercially available product (Moray Firth). Haven't been able to get the Munich types right yet. The only real problem is that with every variation I try, the only way to find out if it works or not is to brew another beer with it. You really need to be dedicated to keep going, but I'm working at it. ~~~~ New topic: Has anyone tried malted barley flour in bread making? Cheers Keith Menefy Hukerenui New Zealand Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:11:53 EST From: KMacneal at aol.com Subject: Re: Unmalted wheat In a message dated 11/24/1999 12:17:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, homebrew-request@hbd.org writes: << Next question would be are there any styles of beer that utilise high proportions of unmalted wheat. I take it we'd be looking at low protein soft white wheats rather than bread wheat. Any comments? Rgds and thanks again. Darren Robey >> Belgian Wit is the only one that I am aware of. I use whole wheat flour (not white) in mine. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:10:00 -0500 From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com> Subject: BT - Thanks Stephen Mallery Hi all, Well, it's not hard to get a lively discussion going on the HBD, that's for sure. I'd like to thank Stephen for his prompt reply. While numerous people have e-mailed me about their BT experience, no word as yet been given (that I've noticed) on any chance of a BT revival in any form. Any comments? It's been a waste land of beer reading these days. I want my, I want my, I want my old BT. <sob> (Sung to the tune of "Money for Nothing". Sorry about the irony) Rob Jones, Toronto Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:29:08 -0500 (EST) From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca> Subject: Question on Welding Aluminum Hi folks, I'm posting this for a friend who doesn't have time to scan for answers. But actually it applies to me as well, since I'm looking for the same thing. Here's what he wrote : First question, is: are there any rods that should not be used to do this if it will be in contact with the wort, i.e. what should be used? Next question, I will be using a stainless steel ball valve screwed on there. Does this pose a problem for galvanic corrosion since the threads will not necessarily be fully dried of wort between uses or does a little teflon tape suffice? Should I be unscrewing it every time (or maybe just at the end of the season for my summer hiatus), and if so, will the aluminum hold up? thanks, -Alan - -- "Brewers make wort. Yeast Makes Beer." - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide http://www.bodensatz.com/ What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:36:00 -0500 From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com> Subject: Rose hips Okay, Mike (Bardallis) now you have my curiosity up. How does one process Rose Hips to use in a mead? You tell us it was a favorite but you failed to describe it. Come on you can do better. Frank Russo FJRusso at Coastalnet.com "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:16:56 -0500 From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com> Subject: Benzene and public safety In HBD #3177, Dave Burley wrote: - --------------------------------------------------------- Unless I missed something, it has been only proven so in specially selected, tumor susceptible mice. But, he is right it is *legally* a carcinogen. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Isn't benzene one of those substances that is only a carcinogen in California? As in TV commercials that sometimes include the phrase: "Substance xxx has been shown to be a carcinogen in California." .. .. .. .. .. ...I not serious, just kidding about the wording used in the commercials. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:34:36 -0800 From: "Brian Dixon" <briandixon at home.com> Subject: BT ... I'll miss it! I can't say for sure, but I'll bet that the people at BT are probably not getting much pay for the work they are doing to provide back issues. The head guy has already taken a different job at a different magazine. MY experience with the rag is that it warms my heart every time I think of it. Name another magazine that was closer to the real brewing community. Or another that was willing to accept and publish articles from brewers at large rather than just their "chosen few." Or another that cared more about the technology rather than sales figures from publishing cheap attention-getting articles that repeat the same drivel over and over again because they tend to increase sales from non-serious curious onlookers at the local magazine stand: "Can you boil water! You can make beer!" or "Make your favorite beer cheaper than you can buy it!" etc. I give BT my perpetual thumbs-up and figure waiting on a back issue or two is no big deal ... how fast would you fill orders _after_ losing your job? And BTW, before anyone makes accusations about botched finances or mismanagement and what not, I'd back it up with facts or don't bother. The good people at BT don't need the noise. Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:26:02 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: wheat "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> asks from down under: >Next question would be are there any styles of beer that utilise high >proportions of unmalted wheat. I take it we'd be looking at low protein >soft white wheats rather than bread wheat. Any comments? There are several reasons for prefering such wheat in my mind. Soft wheat is soft because of their protein - it is less glutenous (bad for bread, good for cookies, biscuits, pie crusts, etc), which makes it, I feel, better for brewing, also - less chance of a stuck mash. It are also easier to mill soft wheat. Furthermore, soft wheat is typically lower in protein, and since this is good in malting barleys, I think it must also be good in wheat. White wheat has white bran as opposed to red. A quirk of wheat genetics is that the gene for bran color is linked to the gene for bran tannins and phenols, so white wheat is milder in flavor than red. (I understand that Nabisco uses almost entirely white wheat in shredded wheat becuase of this). Now I don't know if all of this or even any of this is important, but I feel than my wits have a nicer character with soft white winter wheat than with hard red. This is what Hoegarten uses in Belgium, but when Hoegarten founder Peter Celis came to the us (Texas) and started his brewery, he used Texas hard red winter wheat. Go figure. I think it must be a matter of using local produce. texas hard wheat is lower in protein and less glutenous than high plains hard spring wheat, however, which is what is used to a high extent in bread flour. I have no idea of the availability of any of these kinds of wheat in Australia. It seems to me it's all hard red. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:37:51 -0500 From: Paul Hausman <paul at lion.com> Subject: Benzene: "Toxic" or "Non-Toxic"? Just one more on the non-brewing topic (I hope). In HBD # 3177 Dave Burley writes: >Page down if you don't want to read about >properly describing chemical dangers... >...Sorry for the rant... Dave, it's either one or the other. You can't write a scientific treatise and rant at the same time. As a health & safety professional, I share your dislike of extremist, sensationalist rants about "toxic chemicals". However, non-specific dismissal of the hazards of materials is at least as sensationalist and probably more irresponsible. I've followed your posts in the past with great interest (your knowledge of brewing and brewing chemistry is impressive), and this is not your style. Sorry for the rant. Here's the data. It was extracted from Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials. CARCINOGENICITY? >Unless I missed something, it has been only >proven so in specially selected, tumor >susceptible mice. But, he is right it is >*legally* a carcinogen I guess you must have. (Unless you use the tobacco industry definition of "proven".) All national and international scientific authorities have labeled benzene as a confirmed human carcinogen or "sufficient evidence" human carcinogen This includes the US National Toxicology Program and the International Agency for Research on Carcinogens These are scientists, not politicians. They reach their conclusions only after reviewing all available research and subjecting their whole process to peer review. The result is a consensus of the scientific community. According to them, Long term chronic inhalation exposure to benzene has been clearly linked to lymphomas, myeloid leukemia and Hodgkin's disease. This is the most serious health hazard benzene poses. Not that a single exposure should be feared, or even multiple low-concentration exposures. (heck, every time you fill your car with gas you get some minor exposure.) But anyone using benzene should do so in a well ventilated area and minimize the vapors he/she breaths. TOXICITY Benzene is not "drop dead if you see it" toxic. The lowest reported LDLo for humans (the lowest dose that has actually killed the MOST SENSITIVE human) is 50 mg/kg body weight. This figure was reported in Pharmaceuticals Monthly. That would be swallowing about 4 grams (a teaspoon or so) for the average adult. Most people would be expected to have a significantly higher tolerance than that. Not something to fear, but don't lick your fingers after using it either, you might get yourself sick. And certainly don't drink the stuff. But it is highly volatile and unlikely to end up in your beer unless you specifically put it there. The lowest observed LCLo (lethal concentration in air) for humans is 150 ppm. Again, a modest toxicity, but not one to be dismissed. >This doesn't mean we should be sloppy, but let's >stop crying wolf and supporting a flawed system >of evaluation of danger ( tumor susceptible mice), >so we know where to spend our resources and >of what to be really careful. Let's not mix politics >and public safety as now happens - in spades. > >Every statement about chemical safety should >be prefaced by "In tumor susceptible mice and >specially selected strains of hairless, poor >immune system mice... No studies of humans >were carried out". Unless that's not the fact. In which case putting such silly disclaimers in front of your warning would be counterproductive. I'd rather see a frank discussion of the LEVEL of hazard rather than either: "run! run as fast as you can! Don't stop and don't look back!" or "I'm a chemist. I bathed in the stuff daily for 40 years and it hasn't effected me one bit." Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:35:28 -0500 From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca> Subject: further to open fermentation Hi all, Dave B. continues to claim that the problem with really open fermentation is infection of the yeast. He uses two claims to back his argument up: surface to volume ratio and the claim that open fermentation is done in sealed rooms under positive pressure. First, surface to volume ratio has *absolutely nothing to do* with whether the *yeast on the surface* can get contaminated. In fact, it is just fog: regardless of the surface to volume ratio the yeast is on top and commercial fermenters have a much bigger surface area for contamination to fall into. The simple fact is that Dave has provided no evidence to support his claim that yeast heads on top of open fermenters get contaminated. This seems to be case of common knowledge (protect your yeast) leading to the assumption that there will be problem, regardless of whether there is one. On the other hand, the *current* practices of british and belgian commercial brewers and many homebrewers who open ferment and top crop (harvest from the yeast head) is plenty of evidence that he is completely mistaken. Dave goes on about these being historical practices; this is just not true--many british breweries, for example, open ferment *and* harvest and repitch the yeast from the yeast head without contamination. The daily skimming of the yeast head that some breweries practiced in the past is, by the way, evidence *against* Dave's argument as by skimming the yeast they were not protecting the yeast, but *exposing* the beer without harm! (By the way, Dave, if you want to get some serious information on beer souring, have a look at the appendix on soured beers in Wheeler and Protz's Brew Classic European Beers at Home. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'contaminated' yeast from open ferments.) Which brings me to point two: I've heard north american homebrewers say many times that to open ferment you need sealed rooms with positive pressure. Can anyone provide evidence that this is what british and belgian brewers actually do? From what I've read and seen they do no such thing. Try looking at some pictures of fermentation rooms in british breweries. If you want to cover your ferment, by all means do so, but there is no good reason to tell people their yeast will be buggered if they don't. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:42:27 -0500 From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca> Subject: decoctions, oops used the wrong word! Hi all, Marc's a little annoyed with what I wrote, I guess. I apologize for sloppily using the wrong word. What I meant to say is to ask whether decocting might lead to more difficult run offs with a lot of wheat due to decoctions making the mash more *glutinous*. Sorry for saying 'gelatinising', which is, of course, the wrong word. The reason I asked the question is having read the following in Wheeler and Protz, Brew Classic European Beers..., 'Another problem with the decoction mash is that the boiling can cause a glutinous mash that is difficult to run-off and sparge, and requires a traditional type of lauter tun with a broad, shallow grain bed for efficient sparging.'(p. 45) cheers, Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:54:57 -0500 From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Russian Imperial Stout Hi Everyone! Does anyone know the russian cyrillic for "Russian Imperial Stout". I am currently working on my RIS label and want to use the cyrillic rather than the English that any brewery producing the stuff would have used.-- Just my twist on things. Beer is pronounced Pivo but looks more like IINBO with a backwards N Use a times roman font to get closer to what it looks like. there is a web pronounciation guide at http://www.visi.com/~swithee//dictionary/foods/drink/drink.html it is interesting but limited. Phil WIlcox You can respond over the holidays to ThePFHB at aol.com Happy Turkey Day!!!!! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:42 -0500 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Ammonia/Yeast bite RE Thomas Murray's comment on HCL: In neutralizing Hydrochloric acid why fool with ammonia? Grocery store stuff is pretty weak and laboratory strength is pretty nasty because of the vapor. Sodium bicarbonate (Baking Soda) alone works just fine producing CO2 gas, salt (sodium chloride) and water as products. One pound will neutralize about 600 mL of typical hardware store strength (8N) HCl. Of course lye (avaiable from the hardware store) works very well at neutralizing HCL but lye is pretty nasty too and its hard to tell when enough has been used. With baking soda, you are finished when it quits fizzing. Another good choice is chalk (calcium carbonate). * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * RE: Dave B's comment on "Yeast Bite": The last time I brewed I pitched and went off to the airport expecting to be back in 4 days but didn't get back for two weeks. During this time the kreuzen collapsed and all that gradoo which normally gets skimmed fell back through the beer. This beer definitely tasted funny at first and the funny quality was a sort of coarse bitterness. The bitterness measured 36 BU. From the taste I would have guessed it was in the 50's though I knew this wasn't the kind of bitterness I'd expect from EKG. The initial tasting samples were filtered because there were bits of resin floating about in the beer i.e. the harsh "bite" was present even in the filtered beer so it can't be attributed to yeast cells. Ninkasi be praised, this unpleasant flavor has evanesced and this ale is quite pleasant. Bottom line is that I'm a believer - don't let the stuff fall through. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:30:44 -0500 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Benzene as a human carcinogen Dave Burley wrote a lengthy post questioning whether benzene is a carcinogen. I just can't let this one slip by... > "Benzene is a carcinogen" > Unless I missed something, it has been only > proven so in specially selected, tumor > susceptible mice. But, he is right it is > *legally* a carcinogen. Yes you've apparently missed the vast amount of research done implicating Benzene as a human carcinogen. Plenty of work has been done on this, very little having to do with special strains of mice. I just did a quick search of the research literature through the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) and turned up over 900 papers going back all the way to the late 60's. Apparently however, benzene was first implicated as a human carcinogen (acute leukemia) as far back as 1928... > In my own experience, benzene is not toxic in the > sense I believe this word should be used. - that is > poisonous and life threatening. There are varying degrees of poisoning, and exposure could be life-threatening, just not immediately so. You can use these terms whatever way you see fit but as for me, if something I'm exposed to can initiate a cancer that will end up killing me in 20 to 30 years, that's still life-threatening! >As a chemist, I and > millions of other chemists used to wash in this stuff > and breathe it routinely. But I doubt any reasonable chemists would do so today! People used to believe smoking cigarrettes was actually good for them too... >Chemists as a group have > lower cancer rates than the general population, as > do chemical workers. But, this could easily be a red herring - maybe they die of other causes before they develop cancer. There is also a phenomenon called the "Healthy worker effect" that may come into play. They may be more closely monitored, may be more highly educated or health conscious than the population at large, etc... Also, there are studies out there showing increased risks of cancer for chemical workers. One study looking at benzene exposure found an increase in the incidence of liver cancer, interestingly without any corresponding increase in the incidence of cirrohsis. >Maybe epidemiological > studies on human populations are now available > demonstrating the clear carcinogenicity of benzene. > I have never seen them. If you have access search the literature - they are out there in force. > Let's clarify the information source and specify the > effect so we can be better informed and not be > continually ravaged by the words "toxic chemical" > which has taken on emotional meanings in the > media, because of the general non-understanding > of the reporters and the need to make headlines. And > their failure to understand what a toxin is. Yes "let's" as in please give us YOUR sources which indicate that benzene is not a human carcinogen! Simply saying things like "Well, I breathed it in and washed in it but I haven't got cancer" isn't good enough. > I know of no human example in which cancer was > caused by benzene. Again, search the literature > This doesn't mean we should be sloppy, but let's > stop crying wolf and supporting a flawed system > of evaluation of danger ( tumor susceptible mice), Whoa! I'm the first to admit that the system isn't perfect but it aint that shabby either. True, causing cancer in mice or rats isn't proof positive that the same chemical will cause cancer in humans but it certainly raises a lot of red flags!! > Every statement about chemical safety should > be prefaced by "In tumor susceptible mice and > specially selected strains of hairless, poor > immune system mice... No studies of humans > were carried out". No, because this just isn't true. In the case of benzene for example, there are neumerous studies using normal mice and rats (and probably othere animal models as well). In addition, epidemiologic evidence exists for human exposure. Of course, human studies are difficult if not impossible to do. However there are cases where people inadvertantly did studies on themselves (accidental high exposures) and these cases give us information as well... That rodents treated with benzene get cancer means that /by definition/ it is a carcinogen. There is sufficient epidemiological evidence to indicate that benzene is also a /human/ carcinogen. Many studies on humans have shown increased levels of chromosome abnormalities in circulating white blood cells associated with benzene exposure. Occupational epidemiologic studies support a link between benzene exposure and certain leukemias as well as pre-menopausal breast cancer in women. -Alan Meeker Baltimore,MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:47:00 -0500 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: RE: Hoegaarden gone soft?! Pat asks "has the Hoegaarden recipe been tampered with to make it sweeter, less acidic?!" Frankly I've never perceived the level of acidity that has been discussed in the homebrewing community in all the Hoegaarden I've had in Belgium. I wouldn't characterize them as "sweet" but neither would I characterize them as sour or acidic. Light, refreshing, some malt graininess. Very low hopping but the orange/corriander are not nearly as pronounced as many homebrewers (and Blue Moon and Wit!) interpret the Wit to have. Subtlety would be the key word to describe the spicing. I've often wondered if the acidic character attributed to Wit (and often to Guinness) isn't just that the beers have gone off a bit by the time they reach us locally? Did this acidity become a momily? Hoegaarden in Brussels and Guinness in Dublin were not, IMHO, acidic or sour at all. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:54:27 -0500 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: dry hopping with pellets Actually I dry hop with pellets often. No problems. When dry hopping in a seconday carboy, I just toss them in. They settle out fine. If I end up fining, that just helps the settling. I do have a fine mess stainless steel screen on the end of my racking cane so that helps keep lots of stuff out of the final beer. I also dry hop in my serving keg. In this case I made a hop bag out of very fine "cheese-cloth" - actually it's not cheese-cloth but some other material that's very fine. That appears to work great. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:14:38 -0600 From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us> Subject: Refrigerator Woes Reefer dudes and/or dudettes - I recently procured a refrigerator (a relatively recent model) from a neighbor. It worked quite well in his basement - he used it to store beer (gasp!) and other carbonated beverages. The freezer portion was used to store meat. He decided to get rid of it and asked if I wanted it (for free - gasp! gasp!). So I took it. While removing it from his basement, it was held nonvertical (from all the way on its side to vertical) for approx 1-2 minutes. While placing it in my basement, it was once again held nonvertical for approx 1-2 minutes as well as being slid on its side down my basement stairs (in a controlled manner - no free fall!). Between these nonvertical episodes, it sat upright in my garage for a month or so. When I plugged it in yesterday with a 14-2 wire extension cord I made expressly for this purpose (the refrigerator plug is only 2 prong - no ground prong), it coughed a couple of times and then started running The freezer got nice and cold within a couple of hours, but the refrigerator didn't and a wonderful electrical smell became evident. None of the cordage (extension or refrigerator's native) was warm to the touch. My question (and fear) - did I get oil into the compressor and ruin this windfall? Is there something else to worry about from electrical components being out of whack from the various relocations? Thanks for any help - if you don't think the collective will care, private reply is fine. Luke Van Santen St. Louis Park, MN Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:28:00 -0800 From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: RE: Hoegaarden Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Dave Houseman opines: * Frankly I've never perceived the level of acidity that has been discussed in the homebrewing community in all the * Hoegaarden I've had in Belgium. I wouldn't characterize them as "sweet" but neither would I characterize them as * sour or acidic. Light, refreshing, some malt graininess. Very low hopping but the orange/corriander are not nearly as * pronounced as many homebrewers (and Blue Moon and Wit!) interpret the Wit to have. Dave! I'm offended! Blue Moon and "Wit!"?! Please. No, I base my comments on past experience with Hoegaarden - albeit imported lending credence to your "perhaps gone off" comment. And if I were to compare it to anything domestic, it would be Celis White - theoretically the same beer by the same brewer. At least very similar. In comparison to my last Celis White, this beer is almost... ...insipid. I did not suggest that Hoegaarden was as acidic as, say, a good gueuze; however, I've always been able to detect a light, refreshing tartness. This tartness was not apparent in this last sample. Depressing. Could it have simply been a fresher sample, as Dave suggests? Perhaps. But then why wouldn't a fresh Celis White demonstrate the same lack of character? - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock/ "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." - ------------------------------ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:13:16 -0500 From: "Weaver T. Capt - 43MDG/SGOAM" <Todd.Weaver at pope.af.mil> Subject: Help With Cloning 1.) I am a fan of Belgian Wits, and have brewed 3 very nice batches. However, I can not find an ingredient called "grains of paradise." What is "grains of paradise", where can I find it, or what substitute can be used? 2.) While in San Antonio, I was delighted to find Young's Double Chocolate Oatmeal Stout on tap. Anyone have a good clone brew recipe? Does it call for lactose? What kind of chocolate? Return to table of contents
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