---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Oh the shame! Oh the pain! ("Richard Pass")
  Misuse Of Equipment ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Cone / White - MCAB/GCHC ("John or Barb Sullivan")
  old fridge startup problems ("Hull, Ted")
  Corny keg cleaning (Sean Furuness)
  Philadelphia Water (Bill.X.Wible)
  Beer Gas - Detroit Area (rob.green1)
  Bad taste (spostek)
  BUZZ OFF 2000 ("Houseman, David L")
  RevRIMS (Dave Burley)
  AHA Board Election (Bill.X.Wible)
  AHA Board Election (Nathan Kanous)
  Unrecoverable Brewing Mistake (Project One)
  cream ale recipe (J Daoust)
  HSA problem built in to RIMS? (Paul Shick)
  Hopping Question ("Hominid")
  Rye beer - Was: Perle Hops in Big Brew Recipe (YYZCLAYTON)
  Saving a starter (David Sweeney)
  beer stone ?? ("Taber, Bruce")
  beer joke ("Joe O'Meara")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:47:50 +1000
From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au>
Subject: Oh the shame! Oh the pain!

Before I confess I should preface this by saying I've been brewing for
almost 30 years and 5 of those were as a brewmaster in 2 different
microbreweries in Oz.  Pride comes before a fall.

Just to show that experience is no guard against stuff ups.  You have to be
awake too.

Kegged the first brew made using a new batch Baird's Golden Promise malt on
Saturday, put it in the 10 degrees C fridge and put 8 PSI top pressure on to
lightly carbonate it.  Tasted it on Sunday and while very promising it was
still a little undercarbonated.

Monday night got home from work and found the keg empty.  Apparently, the
ball-lock turret fitting which holds the spear must have been slightly loose
and the entire keg contents had seeped past it, through the drain in the
bottom of the fridge and down a crack in the garage floor.

Not only that but a half full F size CO2 bottle had continued to "purge" the
keg until the CO2 bottle too was empty.

So the Pass Brewery now has the grand total of around 3 pints of drinkable
beer in stock.

And the lesson for today is "CHECK YOUR FITTINGS EVERY TIME YOU KEG!"

Time to get into fast ale brewing mode, reflect and sample the plenitude of
gourmet beers in the shops for a week or so.

Cheers,
Richard Pass
Canberra



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:09:24 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Misuse Of Equipment

Dave Burley reflects on some interesting times he spent travelling around
Australia. But I have to take Dave aside and have a quiet word with him.
Nothing too serious and certainly nothing that would concern the patrons of
the Burradoo Hilton.

But Dave, your comments :
>The urinals ( they were urinals, I hope) were much higher off >the floor
>than we position them in the US.

I have to explain to you Dave, all urinals in outback Australia are
positioned at foot level. Some of the fancier ones have a metal grate you
can stand on to really get the sensation of "standing over the trough".

Elevated urinals are an American concept (well that is where I first saw
them) that only more recently have found their way into some of the more up
market public toilets here.

Dave, I sadly have to advise you, along with your mate, both of you
unfortunately must have been peeing in the hand basin. No wonder the locals
took you under their wing and explained to you the meaning of "Burrabadoo".

Never mind, as I said, such behaviour would raise nought but a ripple of
concern in the Burradoo Hilton. Probably no more than an off handed comment
such as "these crazy yanks will do anything for a laugh!"

Getting back to matters of relevance, the only beer you mentioned from your
recollection, of any worth (In my opinion - and probably yours) is Tooheys
Old. This is one of the few ales produced in Australia as opposed to lagers
(mostly tasteless crap) found generally on tap in outback pubs. Tooheys New,
VB, XXXX, Fosters and a host of others can only fairly be put under the one
title - Tasteless Crap!

I once was a Reschs drinker but as I mentioned before, homebrewing has ended
any appreciation I may have had for standard commercial beers.

But things are changing in Oz. The increasing interest in different beers
pushes it's way further into the heartland. Though I doubt you could ever
likely change the drinking habits of a hard core Aussie stockman. He would
no sooner dream of swapping beers any more than he would consider peeing in
the hand basin.

But it is good to know Dave that you enjoyed your time over here. Your
misuse of our equipment we will overlook. Burrabadoo to you too.

Cheers
Phil




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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:09:03 -0500
From: "John or Barb Sullivan" <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: Cone / White - MCAB/GCHC

Just for the record.   Dr. Cone spoke at MCAB I.  Dr. White spoke at MCAB
II.  Both are fine gentlemen who know their stuff, but both are (or were)
involved in a business which could use the exposure to the homebrewing
community.  This has nothing to do with which event is more prestigious.  

However, I'm now up for the challenge.  I'll allow you to compare your
known speakers to ours at MCAB II and you can decide for yourself which is
the most prestigious event.  For MCAB II, we had Dave Miller, Chris White,
Byron Burch, Dave Logsdon, Pat Baker, Jackie and Alberta Rager and George
Fix.  In addition we had segments on the History of Brewing in St. Louis by
Henry Herbst (St. Louis Beer Historian and former president of the Beer Can
Collectors of America) and Steve Michalak of Anheuser Bush spoke on the
Applicability of High Gravity Brewing for Homebrewers.  We also had the
MCAB competition, had a pub crawl, hospitality suite, brewed 180 gallons of
simply fantastic beer for the event, provided a commemorative glass, lunch
and an awards ceremony dinner for $50 for the entire weekend.  Match that! 
Oh by the way, until I saw this post I had never heard of the GCHC.  If you
can get a lineup like we had for free and provide the same amenities that
we did, essentially for cost, maybe I'll come up to the GCHC.  I'm throwing
down the gauntlet... show up MCAB by doing and not by simply yakking!  

John Sullivan
Co-Organizer MCAB II
St. Louis Brews


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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 05:08:18 -0700 
From: "Hull, Ted" <THull at Brwncald.com>
Subject: old fridge startup problems

I recently acquired a free 2nd fridge from a local brewer who was moving out
of town. It's an old Wizard brand, freezer on bottom, pre-frostfree model.
The evaporator for the fridge is an aluminum plate that wraps around the
sides of the interior, with coolant feed/return lines at one end. The
freezer coils are built into the shelves. 
After cleaning it up and letting it sit for a couple days, I tried plugging
it in and turning it on. I've let it run overnight, but it doesn't cool. I
can hear the compressor running, but the only part that gets cold is the
evaporator plate in the fridge right next to where the coolant feeds into
it- the far side of this plate doesn't get cold. As far as I can tell, the
freezer doesn't cool at all. 
Any suggestions on what I can do, besides chucking the whole thing? I've got
a multimeter and the wiring diagram is on the back if you've got suggestions
on what to check. Hopefully, Forrest Duddles is still lurking out there with
some advice. Thanks.
Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA




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Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:08:11 -0500
From: Sean Furuness <Sean.Furuness at tellabs.com>
Subject: Corny keg cleaning

Can anyone point me to instructions on how to clean and sanitize a Pepsi
style corny keg ?  I just ordered a few, and the place I bought them
from says they have been "rinsed".  I suspect I should really clean them
out.

Thanks,
Sean


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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:19:58 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Philadelphia Water





"S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com> writes

>Subject: re: Water Numbers for Philadelphia?
>
>Bill:
>
>I am afraid you'll have to get more specific than "Philadelphia area".  The
>city itself probably has dozens of surface water supplies and even more
>ground-water supplies and they all get treated differently.  Do you mean
>just the city or the suburbs?  I know Philadelphia Suburban Water Company
>serves most of the suburbs for at least a 25-30 mile radius.  I know we have
>worked for PSWC for decades and they have many water sources too.  If you
>give me a certain area I could see if we have water quality data for that
>town, city or whatever.  What kind of water chemistry are you looking for?
>Give me some details and I'll see what I can do.
>
>Scott Snyder
>Senior Hydrogeologist
>Leggette, Brashears & Graham, Inc.
>126 Monroe Turnpike
>Trumbull, CT 06611
>(203) 452-3100
>(203) 452-3111 fax
>ssnyder at lbghq.com


Hey, Scott.  Thanks for taking the time to write back.  I live in the NorthEast
Section of the city of Philadelphia.  I suppose I am drawing municipal water.

I had one other person respond to this, and they sent me:

Ca   30.00
Mg     5.00
Na   11.90
SO4  44.00
Cl   42.00
CO3  41.00

You have to go easy on me.  I understand these numbers are expressed in
ppm of these substances, which is supposed to be the same as milligrams
per liter, or something like that.  That may be a seperate discussion.  I know
the values are for: Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Sulfates, Chloride, and
Carbonates.

I use Brew Wizard, and what I mainly want these for is to plug in the values
and then try to see what I need to do to emulate other famous world waters.
Right now, I specifically have Burton on Trent in mind, as I like to brew Milds
and English Ales.  Later, I might want to take a stab at Dortmund, etc.

I guess it would also be helpful to know what other 'things' are in the water
here.  I can usually taste chlorine, so I figure we probably have a fair amount
of that.

I've already heard Promash is better than BrewWizard, but my brewing
computer is an old 486 Laptop that runs Windows 3.1.  I got it cheap, and
I have no plans to spend any money to upgrade it to 95.

Thanks for any help.

Bill








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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:42:20 -0400
From: rob.green1 at firstunion.com
Subject: Beer Gas - Detroit Area

Here in Charlotte NC, National Welders Supply is the Guiness endorsed
supplier of beer gas.  With a name like 'National Welders Supply' they may
have a branch in Motown.  If they don't want to deal with an individual try
to get your local homebrew supply store to set up a commercial account for
it's patrons.  My local shop offers this as a service to it's customers.

Rob



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:56:35 US/Eastern
From: spostek at voicenet.com
Subject: Bad taste

I recently posted about an Amber that I have had
some problems with.  Thank you thus far for all
the responses.  Actually I can't remember the
name verbatim but it is the Wild Hogge (sp?) Amber
Ale from the Clone Brews book.

My last post had to do with blowing the lid off
my primary multiple times in the first two days
of fermentation.

The brew is bottled and has sat about 10 days.  I
opened one over the weekend and it has a very
metalic aftertaste.  Is this what an oxygenated
brew tastes like?  Is there any hope for it if I
let is sit longer?  The sad part is that it tastes
really good up front but the aftertaste is just
terrible.

I just want to file it away as tase A is a direct
result of not preventing B.

Thanks.
Steve
from
PA


- ---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail.
      http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/




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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:01:50 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: BUZZ OFF 2000

Second posting:  The Beer Unlimited Zany Zymurgists, BUZZ, homebrew club
would like to
announce the 2000 Buzz Off Competition.  This year it will be held on June
3rd at the New Road Brewhouse in Collegeville, PA.  Entries are due by May
27th.  Further information can be found at
http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff/ .  
Once again the Buzz Off will be an MCAB Qualifing Event as well as the
lynchpin of the regional
Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year.  For those of you who are judges or
stewards, please reserve this June 3rd and contact Chuck Hanning to let us
know you can attend.  If you have a problem with our web site, contact
either Chuck or me and we will email you the information to enter or judge.


David Houseman, Organizer: dhousema at cccbi.org
Chuck Hanning, Judge/Steward Coordinator: hanning at voicenet.com
Beer Unlimited, mailing destination and participating sponsor:
brewipa at aol.com



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:03:56 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: RevRIMS

Brewsters:

Bill Macher's animated discussion of his revRIMS only prompted one
question.

Bill, can you do us an ASCII drawing? {8^) 

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:17:51 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: AHA Board Election



"Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net> writes:

> We get to choose four.  What's the rap on these folks?
>
>Scott Abene
>Pat Babcock
>Louis Bonham
>John Carlson, Jr
>Stephen Mallery
>David Miller
>Randy Mosher
>Lynne O'Conner
>Martin Stokes
>

I am also an AHA member, haven't voted yet, and would also like some
more info on these folks.

Three of the names are familiar to me - David Miller, Randy Mosher, and
Lynne O'Conner.  I don't recognize any of the other names.

David Miller is the author of several books, including Dave Miller's
Homebrewing Guide, which is recommended reading for the BJCP.
Randy Mosher also has several books and used to write for BT,
I believe.  Both are very technical and advanced brewers.
( I like these guys)

Lynne O' Conner owns and operates St. Pat's Homebrewing Supply in
Texas.  (I'm undecided about  her, because of the business angle)

There were some statements from each candidate in the last Zymurgy -
But I'd hate to vote or not vote for someone based solely on one paragraph
in a magazine.

But I guess that's what we'll have to do if we don't get more info...





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Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:42:56 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: AHA Board Election

I saw a posting that included the following:
 > Pat Babcock - Is a computer hologram created in a fit of boredom
                 by Karl Lutzen. Likes Stroh's. Spends too much time on
                 the PC and not enough with his wife and kids. Thinking
                 of getting out of home brewing. Tortures aquaintances
                 and small animals with boring minutia. Don't vote for
                 him.

Back to me:
Any guy that likes Stroh's (even though it's now made with clean water) 
gets my vote.  Where can I go to pick up my voter's registration card?
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:23:15 -0800
From: Project One <project1 at pond.net>
Subject: Unrecoverable Brewing Mistake

Before I relate this tale of woe, I need to emphasize that it 's not ME in 
the story...

I was at the local brew shop last Fri., picking up my ingredients for the 
Big Brew.  The shop owner & I got into a discussion of brewing 
mistakes.  He told me of a guy that had come in recently and told him about 
bottling a recent batch.  This guy (NOT ME!) had the beer in the bucket, 
and had added his primer to it.  As he was starting to bottle, he realized 
that he had grabbed the wrong packet and primed his beer with TSP!!  Said 
the guy..."That's the last time I have a bong hit while I'm 
bottling!"  Needless to say, the batch got dumped.

- --------->Denny Conn



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Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:32:51 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: cream ale recipe 

OK, I have had  some responses from several members, and this is where
it seems to be going.  For the creamy mouthfeel, I should use some or
all of the following in a 5 gal. batch; 4 0z. dextrin, ~22% flaked corn
or barley, a mash temp of ~159 degrees. I think (unless the collective
suggests otherwise) I will try ALL the additions and see just how creamy
I can make it. My total grain not withstanding the barley/maize
additions will be around 5.5 #s, 5# 2-row, .5# honey malt. I am shooting
for a lightly colored cream. 
 Thanks in advance, private e-mail is pref.  Jerry


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Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: HSA problem built in to RIMS?

 


Hello all,

	I've been thinking kind of hard about a minor (but 
recurring) problem with my current brewing system and process.
I've noticed that my beers aren't lasting quite as long as those
made with my old, stove top approach, a few years back.  In
particular, the darker beers are showing signs of problems with
hot-side aeration:  a loss of malt "presence" after a few months,
sherry tones developing afterward.  None of this is too horrible,
but it would be nice to fix it.

	My problem, though, is that I'm using a one-tier converted keg
"semi-RIMS," with gas burners and pumps.  The weak point, I think, lies
in recirculating the wort in the mash tun.  I just use a stainless steel 
collander on top of the grain to accept the wort from a flexible 5/8"
tube.  The outlet is always below the level of the liquid, and I adjust
the flow to avoid splashing, so that the usual suspects for HSA are
missing.  Also, the pumps are carefully primed and leak-free, so I'm
not getting any air in the hoses at all.

	What I think is happening is that any extended recirculation
of the wort exposes virtually all of it to the air at the top of the
mash tun.  Yes, I know that we homebrewers tend to think that the
surface of a mash is protected by a layer of steam, but I'm convinced
that a 150F or so mash doesn't produce anywhere near enough steam to
purge the mash tun of air.  Further, even if we use a carefully designed
recirulation system, yielding the proverbial "smooth, laminar flow,"
the wort still has the potential to pick up a ton of oxygen.  Here's
a simple analogy to illustrate this point:  we've all seen aquariums
with rising columns of bubbles, produced by air pumps through airstones,
often rising through clear plastic "riser columns" connected to an
under gravel filter.  This sort of phenomenon is essential to aerate the
water properly, but generally not because the bubbles are dissolving
in the water.  Instead, the consensus is that the rising bubbles produce
a steady flow of water, exposing as much water as possible to the surface,
where it picks up oxygen.  My understanding was that this was tested by
pumping pure nitrogen into a tank and measuring almost exactly the same
levels of dissolved oxygen as one gets with a traditionally aerated tank.

	So I guess I'm worried that this problem is inherent to _any_
RIMS approach, regardless of the return mechanism, if one recirculates
the wort continuously.  I can see two simple ways to test this idea,
without too much work.  The first is to brew a batch with very limited
wort recirculation, almost certainly a single infusion.  I envision
doughing in at 152-4F, resting 60 minutes or so, then doing just enough
recirculation to clarify the runnings before beginning the runoff to the
kettle (no mash out.)  A second way is to do a "standard" brew session,
but purge the mash tun headspace with CO_2 before doughing in, as well
as periodically during the mash/sparge.  In either case, my guess is
that the HSA symptoms should be significantly lower than those found
in a batch brewed in my usual way.

	Unfortunately, HSA symptoms take quite a while to develop (at
least if one avoids the most obvious sins, like pouring hot wort through
a strainer,)  so this experiment is likely to take quite a while to
produce what's certain to be a non-definitive answer.  I'm asking the 
collective, then, for any feedback on the ideas I've offered above.  Am
I looking at the problem too pessimistically?  Are there any more obvious
causes of the HSA problems that I'm missing?  Can you think of a RIMS
(or "semi-RIMS") design that avoids this source of HSA?  Or should I
just drink my beer faster and stop thinking so much?  Now there's a good
suggestion....

	Thanks in advance for any help. 
       

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:32:25 -0500
From: "Hominid" <Joel at Donelson.com>
Subject: Hopping Question

I've been lurking here for quite awhile, and before I ask my first question,
I'd like to thank all those who have advanced my knowledge of home brewing.

I made 5G of extra stout last night, but I forgot to add the finishing hops
(1 OZ Willamette pellets). Can I dry hop for a couple of days to make it up,
or should I just forget it? If dry hopping is suggested, should I wait until
racking to secondary, and what would be the recommended duration?

Thanks in advance!
 -Joel



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:37:56 EDT
From: YYZCLAYTON at aol.com
Subject: Rye beer - Was: Perle Hops in Big Brew Recipe

Last week, "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com> wrote:
Subject: Perle Hops in Big Brew Recipe
<<
<snip> One other some what related question. I've had some 
real nice Rye Ales recently and I'm interested in brewing one.
I was thinking of using a similar recipe to the Big Brew one 
with perhaps a little less cascade. Is this a good idea? How 
much rye compared to the other malts should be used? The ale I
like the best had just a hint of rye in the aroma and had a 
real nice mouth feel without as much bitterness as a normal 
pale ale. <Snip>
>>

I brewed my frist rye beer this winter and really enjoyed how 
it Turned out (thanks for the advice Jim and Jason).  I used 
20 percent rye and hopped to 35 IBU (Tinseth formula).  I 
wanted it to have some lager characteristics so I used WLP810 
(San Francisco Lager).  This was no whimpy beer, OG 1060, FG 
1017. It was full bodied with a nice firm rye flavor.  A great 
winter Brew but probably a little heavier than what you are 
looking for.  You may want to cut the OG to under 1050 and 
reduce the rye to 15 percent or so to lighten it up a bit.  
Adjust the hops accordingly.  The beer went over well at a 
recent AABG meeting and it was popular with my non hop head 
friends.

I have since decided I do not really care for the San Francisco
Yeast strain (I have used WLP810 and Wyeast 2112 on other beers 
as well and was not impresses with the result).  I have been 
using WLP029 (German Ale/Kolsh) yeast fermented cool (58 - 60 
deg F) in my American wheat beer with great success (a crowd 
favorite)and may try it in my next rye.  

Here is the recipe for those who may be interested:

Sunnydale Ales - Ryebaby Rye (5.5 gal)

Grains: Hops:
7 lbs 2-Row 1 oz Perle - 60
1 lb American rye malt .5 oz Perle - 20
1 lb German rye malt 1 oz Tettnang - 20
1 lb German wheat malt
25 lb American crystal malt Yeast:
4 handfulls of rice hulls WLP810 in 600 ml starter

I took the rice hulls, rye, wheat and 1 pound of 2-row and 
began mashing in a 10 qt pot.
Rest 1 - 105 F for 35 min beta glucan rest (1.3 qt/lb).
Rest 2 - 130 F for 30 min protein rest.
Rest 3 - 152 F and add to main mash (which I started when rest 
  3 temp was reached).

Mashed the whole thing at 152 for 75 min in my Gott cooler. 
It was fun to watch the thick gooey mess go through the rests 
becoming thinner and clearer as the enzymes do their work.

Boil 65 min 
OG 1060

Primary ferment 12 days at 63 - 65 F
Secondary ferment/lager 30 days at 40 F.
FG 1017

Cheers,

Joe Clayton
Dr. Pivo MMCXII, Baron of Sunnydale Ales, AABG, AHA, HBD, ETC...
Farmington Hills, MI USA



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:40:16 -0500 
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: Saving a starter

I was very diligent in making my pint starter of 1028 English Ale this week.
Unfortunately, something has come up and I can't brew this weekend.  Can I
store this starter and reactivate it when I'm ready to brew?

My idea is to cap it (it's in a 22oz bottle) and put it in the refrigerator
until next week.  Then I can decant the spent wort(beer) off of the yeast
cake, add some sanitized wort and aerate.  24-72 hours later, bingo!  High
krausen and pitch time.  Are there any flaws with this? Should I wash the
yeast and if so, how and with what?

Thanks in advance.

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
david at stulife2.tamu.edu 



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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:47:52 -0400 
From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at nrc.ca>
Subject: beer stone ??

I asked a question a few days ago about possible causes of off-flavors in my
beers.  I received a bunch of responses off-line with lots of good advice
and I really appreciate it.
One of the response refereed to "beer stone" formations in glass carboys.
It stated;
>>>>
I had a similar problem a while ago.  I had about 5 batches in a row go
bad. It turned out to be a deposit called "beer stone" forming in the
carboys.  Chlorine based cleaners are alkaline and are not very effective
against beer stone.

If this is your problem, try an acid like CLR first, then sanitize with
chlorine afterwards (but rinse thoroughly between each one).  I use hot
CLR with a rag and brush on my carboys every 2nd batch now and I have no
more problems.

I've been told that beer stone is calcium oxalate, but I'm not a
chemist.  It's a very firm deposit: I had it in some bottles which looked
clean, and were squeaky clean to the touch, but a brush would leave marks
in it.>>>>>>>

This is new to me.  I'm going to follow his advice (it can't hurt), but has
anyone else ever had this problem?? A search of the HBD archives shows zip.

Bruce Taber
Almonte, Ont. Canada
bruce.taber at nrc.ca 




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Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joe O'Meara" <drumthumper_2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: beer joke

Hey everyone, this showed up in my mailbox today, and
I thought I would share, so enjoy.

Bears in Bars
- ------------
A bear walks into a bar in Billings, Montana and
sits down.
He bangs on the bar with his paw and demands a
beer.  The bartender approaches and says, "We don't 
serve beer to bears in bars in Billings."

The bear, becoming angry, demands again that he be
served a beer.  The  bartender  tells him again, more
forcefully, "We don't serve beer to belligerent bears
in  bars in Billings."

The bear, very angry now, says, "If you don't serve
me a beer, I'm going to  eat  that lady sitting at the

The bartender  says, "Sorry, we don't  serve beer
to belligerent, bully bears in bars in Billings."

The bear goes to the end of the bar, and as
promised, eats  the woman.  He comes  back to his seat
and again demands a beer.  The bartender  states,
"Sorry, we don't serve beer to belligerent, bully
bears in bars in  Billings who are on  drugs."

The bear says, "I'm not on drugs."

The bartender says, "You are now.  That was a barbitchyouate."

=====
Joe O'Meara
Mad Dwarf Brewery (AKA my kitchen and coat closet)
ICQ # 60722006
http://homebrew.4mg.com

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