HOMEBREW Digest #4248 Sat 17 May 2003

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  Re: Skunking and light ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer ("-S")
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer (Hayes Antony)
  Wyeast #1187 Ringwood (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: Fat Tire Clone (Jason Woolwine)
  Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer (Michael Hartsock)
  Fat Tire Clone Needed (djhbrew98) ("Ray Daniels")
  Chili Beer--theoretical to practical (Robert Sandefer)
  Jalapeno subtext (Scott)
  Cascades (Nick Nik)
  Chili Beer ("Tom White")
  travels in brewing (Marc Sedam)
  Foam Aid (propylene glycol alginate) ("Susan Ruud")
  FWH practicalities ("Christopher Post")
  Briess Malt ("Dennis Collins")
  Conditioning in corny without priming (neils)
  Spaten Optimator Clone (Glenn M Gardner)
  re: Brettanomyces ("Chad Stevens")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:00:14 -0400 From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Skunking and light So I was cleaning up for a family visit tonight, and what should I find, but a paper titled "Interplay of Photochemistry and Beer: How Lightstruck Flavor Is Formed and How It Can Be Prevented" by Denis De Keukeleire, Ghent University, Belgium. from The Spectrum, Vol 14, No. 1, Spring 2001. I'll quote a bit from the conclusions: Photochemistry undoubtedly deteriorates the quality of beer ... Isohumulones, the main beer bitter compounds derived from hops, undergo light-induced decomposition either on direct illumination with UV-A light, or via a photoredox reaction involving excitation of a visible-light absorber such as riboflavin. ... Our studies of this phenomenon by means of time-resolved electron paramagnetic resonance, applied to the photochemistry of individual beer bitter compounds and model systems, in conjunction with identification of photoreaction products, have permitted to establish reliable reaction mechanisms for formation of the lightstruck flavor. He concludes that light in the range of 350-500nm (near UV to blue-green) is (most) responsible for skunking. =Spencer Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:40:17 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer Michael Hartsock says ..., > I couldn't DISagree with you more! ... You'll disagree more after you read this post. > But if you > look culturally and historically, most indigenous > dishes are starchy, and overspiced. Need I point out > mexican and Indian dishes? I appreciate that you disagee Michael, it's too bad you didn't bother to respond to any of my points. I wrote NOTHING to indicated that many (not most) cultures do not enjoy very spicy dishes. Traditional spicy dishes are NOT generally unbalanced. Very hot spicy chili can balance the meat, peppers, spices flavor while lousy chili is just sweet or spicy glop. Kung Pao chicken can be very hot, but it's balanced by other flavors. If you don't see that then you missed the point. I completely disagree with Michael about curry. I don't enjoy curry, but it is clearly combination of several spices which represent a true balance of different flavors. It's no "johnny one note" simple flavor. I must agree that I don't see much balance in Thai food as served in the US - but I wonder if it's authentic or if it's my lack of experience. I find types of balance in virtually all other cultural cuisines I've tried. Often the balance point is odd to the inexperienced, but it's usually clearly there. What I DID say was that infants and children reject many food, for bitterness or spiciness (or even foreignness). We in the US have few common cultural foods and often families have lost their cultural food roots, so there is no developmental notion of balanced flavor for many. This vacuum of (generally well balanced) cultural foods is filled in two ways. First the MacDonalds and the Budweisers of the world present us with completely safe and unchallenging low-flavor foods. These represent the sort of bland flavor scheme that an infant or child would want. No one really likes these - but no one hates them either. They are truly foods for the least-common-denominator. The other direction is in extreme inbalance. Whether it's Kool-Aid or Pez or Extreme Habanero sauce for the BBQ or peppermint schnapps or sugar coated cereals - these do not represent anything like a balanced flavor scheme. They are cartoonishly out of balance. Very flavorful beers can either be balanced or unbalanced. Look at Victory Hop Devil with a huge IBUs count. An average ale with 100IBUs it would be horribly unbalanced. Instead Victory adds a HUGE malt background and a fair bit of sweetness to this beer and creates a very nicely balanced big beer. > So what is the difference in using jalapenos or orange > peel? One is traditional, one is not. It has nothing to do with tradition. The difference is that the hot capsecin component of pepper beer adds nothing to the experience except a sharp kick to the tongue. It ruins malts' natural smoothness which is a primary component of beer. You might as well add peppermint to a fine pils. It is jarringly out of place whereas a moderate amount of orange peel is not disruptive to beer flavor and adds nuance to the acidity. There are a lot of non-standard beer 'adulterants' which actually make sense. Raspberries and apples and raisins push beers in different and somewhat non-obvious positive directions. Nuts in beer acts very harmoniously w/ the malt flavor. The spice selection for Xmas ales requires considerable experience - but adds to the estery fruitiness and 'justifies' the beers sweetness without covering it as much as hops. I'm stunned and surprised at how well pine/juniper flavor works in beer. I'm certain there are many undiscovered flavors what will work in beer. Maybe someone will discover a new spice or flavor that will revolutionize the way we think of beer - much as hops did 6 centuries ago. It won't be hot peppers I am quite certain. The only relation to tradition is that grossly unbalanced flavor schemes don't survive the test of time to become tradition. >Jazz is the only truely original american art form. PBS inspired bull**** ! 'Art' is just a proscribed subset of crafts. A few centuries hence our skyscrapers, vehicles, silicon chips, nuclear policy and internet will be viewed as art, with distinct American expressions. If you opened your mind you'd see that all expressions of style are art. It's only due to restricted vision that jazz appears as unique or that it's 'American-ness' matters a whit. >The spirit behind Jazz drives authentic american >creations. That's a highly romantic and childish thought Michael. Similar to and just as implausible as Marx' historical dialectic. The same precise arguments can justify Yoda's view of 'The Force' as the fountainhead of all innovation. Irrelevant and ridiculous. > A benefit of not being a nation with deep > cultural roots, is that we are not bound to cultural > roots. Right - and this gives us the freedom to try different things. Great things like the bill of right, public education, bourbon, jazz, APAs, TV and the internet; also awful things like Prohibition, pepper beer, Edsels, disco, Budweiser, SPAM, TV, public education and the 'Patriot Act'. >Welcome to america! I've been here all along Michael, maybe when you get back from Jazz fantasy land you'll tell us why pepper beer is good. America is about individuality and individual choice. I have no difficulty if you choose to drink pepper beer, or Bud or Corsendonk or Franziskaner. You have freedom to choose but the choices have differing merit independent of popularity. I posted my opinion of the general merit of pepper beer. I like pepper and I like conventional ale but I don't think the two belong together. If you want to rebut that then tell me what makes it pepper beer better than the equivalent unpeppered ale aside from "I like it - it's jazzy". I am perfectly aware that tastes differ. I am not just saying that I personally dislike pepper beer. I'm suggesting it's a bad idea based on more general principles just like peppermint beer and eucalyptus beer - just not as bad. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:31:54 +0200 From: Hayes Antony <HayesA at aforbes.co.za> Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer Our study group's topic last night was beer and food. I used Steve Alexander's (-S) post yesterday as an example of a well thought out approach to the subject. His three methods of deciding flavour combinations formed a useful discussion point. I find it interesting that the criticisms of his post are not as well thought out, or set out in as structured an argument. The counter argument seems to be that flavour is totally subjective, and hence no objective statements can be made. Whilst this may be true at a philosophical level, practically, there are some objective statements that hold true sufficiently for them to be useful. It is in the exploration of these semi objective observations that the art of flavour lies. I find Steve's work very useful here. Ant Hayes Johannesburg Confidentiality Warning ======================= The contents of this e-mail and any accompanying documentation are confidential and any use thereof, in what ever form, by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:21:34 -0400 From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu Subject: Wyeast #1187 Ringwood I am reluctantly trying Ringwood again, after a very bad experience with it when I got some slurry from a brew-pub several years ago. The flavor was VERY phenolic (I believe) and medicinal...and I had to toss the batch into the woods! I have the feeling that this yeast is rather cranky if not dealt with in exactly the right way,...but am uncertain as to what those parameters are. In the absence of any advice I am going to try to keep the temp down near the bottom of its range,...and perform a diacetyl rest. Has anyone used this yeast, and what advice can you give. I like the flavors that result from the ringwood creatures, but in moderation... ..Darrell Plattsburgh, NY: 44 41 58 N Latitude 73 27 12 W Longitude [544.9 miles, 68.9]Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:27:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Woolwine <jasonwoolwine at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Fat Tire Clone The BYO recipe archives have a recipe for Fat Tire. I haven't tried it so I can't comment on the recipe but here's the link: http://www.byo.com/recipe/685.html Jason Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Jalapeno Lovers Unite! (somewhere else)/taste in food+beer -S says: OK, well, -S says a lot. Unfortunately most of the arguments are Ad Hominum, scarecrow, red herring, and otherwise "question begging" arguments. I will take up the mission of justifying the pepper beer without succumbing to an off-topic discussion about "childish", "PBS" inspired opinions about JAZZ. My jalapeno beer is well balanced. I soaked the peppers (three total) in water just off the boil in a covered pot for 15 minutes. I discarded the water and added the few peppers to the secondary. The result is a beer without even a hint of heat, but I nice pepper flavor that is balanced against a muted amber ale with low hopping rates and a nice, dry backbone. It is not better than un-peppered ale, and simply I would never claim that it replacement for any style. It is GOOD, however, and it has a profile that is "garden fresh." Much like fruit in a beer, it takes the ale in different directions. Just remember, claiming that an argument is "PBS inspired" is not an effective rebuttal, and aligning your opponent with Markism is just a cheap semantic trick, appealing to the "lowest common denominator." Michael University of Missouri-Columbia ===== "May those who love us, love us. And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts. And if he doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles So we'll know them by their limping." Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:49:15 -0500 From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net> Subject: Fat Tire Clone Needed (djhbrew98) Can't spill the beans yet, but Fat Tire also rated high in the Zymurgy survey of the Best Beers in America and there will be a clone recipe for it in the July-August issue as well . . . Ray Daniels Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer Director, Brewers Publications Association of Brewers ray at aob.org 773-665-1300 For subscriptions and individual copy sales, call 1-888-822-6273. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:56:27 -0400 From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net> Subject: Chili Beer--theoretical to practical I have enjoyed (parts of) the recent chili beer thread. I agree that opinions are numerous and that homebrewers, being an independent lot, will brew whatever they want... So, for those who have brewed chili beers, perhaps this dicussion can turn from 'should you brew chili beer?' into 'how do you brew chili beer?'. To wit, how many ounces of chili peppers did you add to the brew? What kind were they? When did you add them to the brew? Beginning of boil? End of boil? Secondary fermenter? Bottle? How long were they in the brew? What flavors besides heat were imparted? Note there are flavors besides bell pepper and heat in chili peppers. I tasted several varieties of raw chili peppers a year ago to explore differences in heat and taste. If anyone's interested, I'll dig the tasting notes out. Robert Sandefer Arlington, VA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:08:19 -0700 From: Scott <sejose at pacbell.net> Subject: Jalapeno subtext Lots of stuff flying around about putting chiles in beer. The only reason I'm looking to brew a Jalapeno Ale is because my brother is hosting a 'Hot Luck" (as opposed to pot luck). Everyone brings a hot dish. So naturally, I was asked to bring a Jalapeno Ale. Makes sense, doesn't it? So I turn to this forum for assistance, and did receive some. Also witnessed the sort of banter and talk that reminds me of sitting at a bar, drinking many beers. Very much fun. So let's keep it up, and yup, I'm going to put veggies in my beer. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:20:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Nik <nikifor99 at yahoo.com> Subject: Cascades I just happened to have some Cascades AND some POR and with the recent discussion I was tempted to bitter with 1 oz of POR at boil and hop up with 3+ ozs of Cascade. But instead I used the Nugget for bittereing as I had originally planned. I also steeped some smoked peated malt with some amber malt. I will use the POR with the Styrian Goldings in the next batch (some of you are probably crunging...ouch). Then again, maybe I will not. I am thoroughly enjoying experimenting with different hops. My first lager is fermenting away at 50 degrees and has a real strong wlp800 ripe banana, fruity, estery smell. I had a few pints of Magic Hat's Blind Faith recently. Delicious! Does anyone know what that is hopped with? Nick Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:45:52 -0400 From: "Tom White" <twhite at dminsite.com> Subject: Chili Beer I find myself pining for days of the Yeast Infection thread. - --Tom Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:59:34 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: travels in brewing I'm going to be in Chicago in the first week in June (yes, I know I'm missing the NHC). I've been to Goose Island and have had suggestions to go to the Map Room too. Any other good places or beer-related events going on that week? I'm going to see a couple of Cubs-Yankees games. Also planning a trip to Oslo, Norway. From what I can tell it's a beer wasteland, but I have little knowledge outside of the Lonely Planet guidebooks. Any brewpubs or beer-esque drinks (something analagous to Finnish sahti) worth going to or trying? Cheers! Marc - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:42:31 -0700 From: "Susan Ruud" <susan.ruud at ndsu.nodak.edu> Subject: Foam Aid (propylene glycol alginate) Hi, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with Foam Aid (propylene glycol alginate). A friend of mine obtained some when a local Brew Pub went to pub heaven. It gives directions for how much to add per barrel - has anyone tried this in a 5 gallon batch? Also - any flavor changes noted with it? Any other problems/advantages to it? Thanks, Your help is really appreciated, Susan Ruud [716.5, 301.1] Apparent Rennerian Harwood, ND Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:20:54 -0400 From: "Christopher Post" <chrispost@ earthlink.net> Subject: FWH practicalities Resend in plain text since it didn't appear in the Digest first time around - perhaps a formatting incompatibility? All, Read the debate on FWH with interest but some frustration, since I'm a zillion miles away from understanding the chemistry and simply want to know how I can best test empirically. My main questions are: - In adapting my own or published all-grain recipes, what part of the hop schedule to modify? I assume that the FWH addition will take the place of a bittering addition since, flavoring considerations aside, the hops will be in the kettle for the full boil. But, how much (if any) additional alpha acid isomerization will take place during the ramp up to the boil, i.e. will I have to adjust the amount of bittering hops accordingly? - I generally boil my wort hard for a half-hour before making any hop additions and use the time to skim off the protein "scum" forming in with the foam. I do this by simply ladling the foam out and rinsing down the drain, trying to take as little good wort with it as possible. But, is it possible that the flavor compounds created as a result of the FWH process are concentrated in the foam I'm discarding, and in this case am I better off just ignoring the protein buildup? Thanks, and apologies if these and other practical points are addressed elsewhere - Chris Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:18:21 -0400 From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com> Subject: Briess Malt I've noticed on my last two bags (50 lb) of Briess 2-row malt that my extraction was way down, like 8 - 10%. When I use the same mill and the same procedures with Munton's or Marris Otter 2-row, the extraction goes back up. I've learned to compensate for this and the beer tastes okay, but it seems strange for the extraction values to be so different. Are the extraction values for Briess just that much lower? I've always relied on the default extraction numbers from Promash and hit them dead on with the Muntons and MO, but with the Briess, this doesn't appear valid. What are others' experiences on this? It would be nice to have actual (accurate) extraction potentials for not only malt types, but specific brands as well. Thanks in advance. Dennis Collins Knoxville, TN http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com "In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice". Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:29:53 US/Central From: neils at texas.net Subject: Conditioning in corny without priming Greetings from Austin, Texas (sorry, no Rennerian) Anyone have any experience with a method suggested by Dave Miller in his classic homebrewing book in which conditioning and carbonation is conducted in a corny keg without priming? I ran across this passage again in his book awhile back and having recently just returned from two weeks in Scotland conducting research for my forthcoming book and having visited some Scottish breweries that this technique is quite similar to how cask conditioned ales are actually carbonated/conditioned (at least today) by some of them. Has anyone tried this? Any success/failure? Slainte! Neil Spake Email: neils at texas.net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:28:53 -0500 From: Glenn M Gardner <ggardner at juno.com> Subject: Spaten Optimator Clone Heat 1/2 gallon of water to 160. Add: 18 oz. Belgian Cara-Munich Malt 1 oz. British Chocolate Malt In another pot, heat 1 gallon of water to 160. Add: 24 oz. German Munich Malt 4 oz. Belgian Aromatic Malt Remove pots from heat source and steep for 30 minutes. Sparge the grains with 1 gallon of 150 degree water. Bring the water to a boil, remove from heat source and add: 5.5 lbs. M&F Extra Light Dry Malt Extract 3.5 lbs Bierkeller Light Malt extract Syrup 8 oz. Malto Dextrin 2 oz. Tettnanger at 3.9%AA bittering Add water to make up 3.5 gallons. Boil for 45 minutes then add: 1 tsp. Irish Moss Boil for 15 minutes. Remove the pot from the heat source and chill the wort for 20 minutes. Transfer to the primary fermenter and add cool water to bring up to 5 1/8 gallons. When wort temp is below 80 degress pitch the yeast. 1st choice: Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager. Ferment at 47-52 degrees for 4 weeks then at 57-62 degrees for the remainder of fermentation. 2nd choice: Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager. Ferment at 47-52 degrees. Transfer to secondary fermenter after 7 days or fermentation slows. Pitch a second batch of the same yeast used above 3 days before bottling. Bottle when fermentation is complete, approximately 5 weeks. Prime with 1 1/4 cups M&F Wheat Dry Malt Extract that has been boiled for 10 minutes in 2 cups of water. Let prime at 70 degrees for approximately 3 weeks, then store at cellar temperature. OG: 1.077 - 1.079 FG: 1.021 - 1.022 ABV: 7.2% Glenn in Plano "Ein tag ohne bier, ist vie ein tag ohne sonneschein" Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:57:27 -0700 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: re: Brettanomyces I tried this a week ago and got no response so I'll try again. It is my understanding that in 1996 the genus Brettanomyces was replaced by Dekkera: Brettanomyces abstinens is now Dekkera bruxellensis "" anomalus "" anomala "" bruxellensis "" bruxellensis "" claussenii "" anomala "" custerianus "" custeriana "" custersii ? "" intermedius ? "" lambicus "" bruxellensis "" naardenensis "" naardenensis Can anyone confirm the genus Brettanomyces no longer exists? Any additional info? Thanks, Chad Stevens Return to table of contents
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